Rank 'em...Speed, Movement, Location

[FPdaddy]

The topic on speed got me thinking!

Here's my take:

The lower the level of ball, the more important SPEED is. IOW, speed dominates the 10U and 12U ages but WILL NOT dominate at the upper levels.

Movement is just the opposite, you NEED more and more of it as you move up the ranks. One good movement pitch can kill at the lower levels but would be killed at the upper levels. I prefer vertical movement.

Location to me is the MOST important attribute. Being able to put your pitches exactly where you want them will keep you in any game. Nothing better than watching a pitcher with command...Greg Maddux comes to mind. Avg. stuff...ridiculous control.

Lastly, IMHO...the CHANGE UP is the #1 most important pitch to have...just ask the Lady Vols

What say you?

Keith

[ssarge]

Lastly, IMHO...the CHANGE UP is the #1 most important pitch to have...just ask the Lady Vols

What say you?

Hey, Keith, good thoughts.

I agree pretty strongly with your last statement (quoted above). But also think that your conclusion on this should change your ranking of what is rhe most challenging for a hitter.


From the perspective of challenging a hitter, I think - by FAR - that the most difficult adjustment is to the CHANGE of speed, especially if the release is similar (not telegraphed). A range of 12-15 mph across the span of pitches is just really, really tough for a hitter to handle.

To that point, your comment obout the change up is spot-on. There is an axiom in baseball that a pitcher can get by with ANY two pitches, as long as one of them is an extremely gfood change up. I don't think that is too far from the truth. Although the very best pitchers thropw a RANGE of speeds, not just 2 speeds. With these kinds of pitchers, no two speeds in an AB are the same.

Look at it like this: From pitch release until contact is about 0.45 seconds. An AWFULLY lot of things have to happen in that time frame for a hitter to make optimal contact. The complexity in this chaos environment and incredibly short time window is boggling. ADDITIONALLY, there is about a 0.015 second window to launch the swing and insure optimal contact. Less than 2/hundredths of a second (which actually represents about 18-24" of the ball's movement towards the plate). And a range of pitch speed of 12-15 mph means that the optimal time to BEGIN the swing can vary by close to a tenth of a second. When you are talking about a swing which - in it's entirety - only takes about 50% longer than a tenth of a second, it's amazing a hitter EVER hits a ball. Just an incredible challenge.



I would rank location next, and movement just behind it. The two often work in concert anyway. BTW, a lot of girls have great control - to THEIR spot. That is good. The BEST pitchers have the ability to probe - and STRETCH - the umpire's zone, and to put the ball wherever that zone expands to. Wherever it may be. This is a different, more refined ability, and it is exceptional.

Really LATE movement might be an exception to the above, but it is rare. Most pitches can be read - in terms of how they are going to break - pretty early. And the brain fairly routinely tracks to this. Late movement is an exception - really tough. But again, really rare. In fact, I believe that movement is typically hard to hit because to make a pitch move, the pitcher probably creates a speed change as well.



Understanding that I am talking about Gold and college, so the numbers may vary (though not the principle): I think raw speed is not as difficult to adjust to, unless the pitcher also changes speed. There of course are limits. If someone is throwing 67+ it's going to be challenging. Happens so rarely, though, it's barely worth it for a hitter to worry about this. A lot of young pitchers - and their parents - who think they are fast get to 43 feet and find out 63-64 really isn't all that fast.

Regards,

Scott

[wadeintothem]

The one pitch I always must be ready for is the thrower with a good change up. IMO, If you arent paying attention, a good change up is the one thing that can freeze you.. even as an umpire. There has only been one time where I had a pitcher throw a pitch that really and honestly fooled me. She was throwing smoke and movement.. then here it a came, an awesome change up out of nowhere... I was like "um, ball?".. "where'd that miss blue?". "It didnt, you just got me." They loved it and it taught me a valuable lesson. A good change up is the hardest pitch to call.

[Martin]

I think they're all important and we can come up with examples where somebody who was exceptionally good in any one of these categories was able to dominate. But, since you asked...

Warren Spahn said that hitting was all about timing and pitching was all about upsetting timing. I tend to agree. So, how does a pitcher upset a hitter's timing? The simplest way is to change speeds. A slightly more difficult way is to change the expected location of the pitch (movement). Hitting your spot doesn't upset timing, per se. It places the ball in a location where most hitters have difficulty driving it.

So the most important category, in my view, is changing speeds. A good changeup, no matter how well disguised, will only succeed if it is set up with a good fastball/rise ball/drop ball/whatever. The hitter must respect that first pitch and cannot just sit on the change up.

If you have great movement on your pitches, this will keep a good hitting team off-balance at least the first time through the order. But they will adjust if the pitcher doesn't have another quality pitch to keep them off balance.

Excellent location will certainly keep a pitcher in most games, but excellent hitters will be able to hit any pitch anywhere in the strikezone. Sooner or later, a pitcher who simply relies on great location will meet her match.

[FPdaddy]

Scott,

Talk to me a little about changing speeds on your pitches...I'm not talking about a change up, but subtle speed changes. IOW, is 4-5mph change significant?

Also, what is your opinion of the so-called "percieved" speed differences. For example, a 50mph inside pitch "feels" faster than a 50mph outside pitch. Does this have any credence in your opinion?

Lastly, how much can a pitcher disrupt timing by not getting into a rhythm with their delivery. IOW, if the pitcher takes 2 seconds to deliver the pitch after getting the sign on one pitch then 5 seconds on the next can this cause the batter problems?

Keith

[Martin]

I'm not Scott, but I'll have a go anyway!

I don't think a 4-5mph change in speed is significant. I believe you need to be closer to 10mph.

I do think the "perceived difference" you mention is important. Having said that, I posted earlier that a good change up is set up by a strong fast ball. If the hitter doesn't respect the faster pitch, she'll sit on the change up, no matter how good it is.

I think a pitcher can disrupt a hitter's timing by changing the timing of her delivery. This could be playing with fire, IMHO, as pitchers also like to have a rhythm. This is where the cat-and-mouse game of staring into the batter and the batter calling time right before the pitcher begins her windup begins.

[FPdaddy]

Martin,

Thanks for the replies!

My take on this comes partly from my own experience. I played DIII baseball and was a fair hitter (speed and defense kept me in the starting line up). In my experience, I found that making contact was not the problem, making SOLID contact however was the problem. So in my mind, pitching is not about striking hitters out, but instead causing the hitter to make less-than-optimal contact. With that in mind, I'm inclined to think 5mph changes in speed between pitches can be effective...NOT as a change up, but as a way to decrease solid contact.

I also think location can cause the same problem. If a pitcher can hit their spots and keep the ball out of the fat part of the plate, they can prevent (not eliminate) that solid contact.

My DD pitched a great game last night recording only five K's in 5 innings. She had one inning where she threw 5 pitches! The other team's best hitter popped the first pitch back to my DD. It took two pitches to get their next hitter to hit a lazy fly to center and the third batter hit a dribbler to third base on the second pitch. To me, that's a great inning. She does it mostly by not throwing two pitches in the same location or same speed back-to-back.

Keith

[ssarge]

4-5 mph difference between the fastest pitch and the change up is not enough - that should be 12 -15 mph (and no more than that, or a good hitter has time to "reload").

But a potcher who can throw the same pitch - say a drop - with a range of 4-5 mph will be hugely effective. This is the kind of pitcher who you ook at and say, "I don' know why we can't hit her." But you can't.

How it's done, I don't know - not a pitching guy. Grip pressure, where the ball is gripped, etc. I just know a pitcher who can do this is extremely frustrating for hitters.

Regards,

Scott

[FPdaddy]

Let me be clear...I was NOT suggesting that the CU be 5mph slower than the fastest pitch. I was talking about throwing the drop at 53mph one time than 48mph the next. (12U)

Keith

[3Bsnag]

I wish I could remember what player showcase it was, but there was a pitchers time that stuck out in my mind.
FB 68mph, change up 43

I thought that must be a typo then read her second times
FB 68, C/U 41

I was really impressed with her change being 25-27 mph slower, would love to see if she has a tell that it's coming.