Inappropriate Music

[TXPeppers-1-Dad]

I have never seen so many Quotation marks. Reminds me of my college days.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Just trying to meet the quota ...

[Skarp]

I do not pretend that I know how to raise your kids ... I barely know how to raise mine ...
You say "appeal to experience" is a fallacy, and then say you are quoting Plato ... just a wee bit ironic, dontcha think? ...
... And where did I say anything remotely like this? :
"listening to Superman the Ho is beneficial for a 14 y.o. girl,"
Nope ... I think its garbage also and let my opinion be known ........
... But if :
"Miraculously, I haven't had many problems with serious disobedience as my kids have gotten older."
You must be doing something right ... good job Dad.........
" can only assume that you are serious when you question whether I will tell my kids not to drink and not to cut class...."
and the point I was trying to make was that just by telling them NO NO NO ... does not make it a rule or a boundry ... they need to know why its a rule or boundry and what the consequences are ...
And you say :"After all, some kids aren't drinking, screwing, etc. in high school."
... absolutely ...but do you think kids being affraid of their Parents under the guise of respect keeps them from having sex and drinking ... I am not saying that your kids are affraid of you ... far from it ... but there are households where so much is off limits without explanation that the kids lash out ... merely making a rule or boundry, without open conversation ( which you say you have had about the content of this crap music ) does not guarantee that your kids will stay away from it ... quite the contrary ... and then you have an adult "role" model Coach letting this crap played be at a tourny ... and loud enough to be heard by and disrupt other teams ...
... the big question here is, why do you think that we are not on the same page ?

Re Plato--not ironic at all, because I don't cite Plato to prove anything. You scoffed when I said appeal to experience was a named fallacy, so I said who named it. That's all. But I also explained why citing experience in lieu of a real argument is fallacious reasoning. Do you deny that it is?

I also said nothing about you claiming that listening to the music was beneficial. Rather, I defied you (or someone) to make that claim, since it is necessary to support the decision to allow your kids to listen to it. Why would you allow your kids to wallow in garbage without being able to identify some offsetting benefit? Merely because they like to wallow in garbage? Not good enough.

Re parenting choices, you are presenting a false dilemma here, as if the only two possible choices are 1) having no boundaries at all, or 2) imposing draconian and random boundaries without any explanations or discussions. Those are obviously not the only choices, and anecdotes about houses in which kids are "afraid" of their parents are entirely irrelevant. I impose limited but important boundaries and explain why the boundaries are important. I teach and reinforce certain values on an ongoing basis, and those values are reflected in the boundaries that I set. It's not like the rules come out of the blue, or make no sense to the kids. They fit with what my kids have been taught over the course of their lives. Based on your own claims, your boundaries apparently do not correspond with your teachings. Why wouldn't they?

Finally, you and others have repeatedly made the point that the more you prohibit something, the more likely they are to engage in that thing (see your "quite the contrary" comment above). That is simply not true--and can't possibly be true, as it violates the most fundamental rule of economics. When you subsidize something, you get more of that thing, and when you tax something, you get less. Freedoms are subsidies, and punishments are taxes. How does that play out in the real world? Simply put, straight-laced kids don't come from anything-goes households. They come from households with standards and rules.

[MoeFoes]

Wow. As far as music and content are concerned. If you are going to play it to the public it must appeal to the public. I have a DD who is 7 and goes to watch 10U dd & 12U dd play. Supermaning a hoe is not something she is going to understand but if the census on Hey Bucket is to explain this action to a 7 year old than I guess I'll have to leave the Bedroom door unlocked.

[GIMNEPIWO]

I do not pretend that I know how to raise your kids ... I barely know how to raise mine ...
You say "appeal to experience" is a fallacy, and then say you are quoting Plato ... just a wee bit ironic, dontcha think? ...
... And where did I say anything remotely like this? :
"listening to Superman the Ho is beneficial for a 14 y.o. girl,"
Nope ... I think its garbage also and let my opinion be known ........
... But if :
"Miraculously, I haven't had many problems with serious disobedience as my kids have gotten older."
You must be doing something right ... good job Dad.........
" can only assume that you are serious when you question whether I will tell my kids not to drink and not to cut class...."
and the point I was trying to make was that just by telling them NO NO NO ... does not make it a rule or a boundry ... they need to know why its a rule or boundry and what the consequences are ...
And you say :"After all, some kids aren't drinking, screwing, etc. in high school."
... absolutely ...but do you think kids being affraid of their Parents under the guise of respect keeps them from having sex and drinking ... I am not saying that your kids are affraid of you ... far from it ... but there are households where so much is off limits without explanation that the kids lash out ... merely making a rule or boundry, without open conversation ( which you say you have had about the content of this crap music ) does not guarantee that your kids will stay away from it ... quite the contrary ... and then you have an adult "role" model Coach letting this crap played be at a tourny ... and loud enough to be heard by and disrupt other teams ...
... the big question here is, why do you think that we are not on the same page ?

Re Plato--not ironic at all, because I don't cite Plato to prove anything. You scoffed when I said appeal to experience was a named fallacy, so I said who named it. That's all. But I also explained why citing experience in lieu of a real argument is fallacious reasoning. Do you deny that it is?

I also said nothing about you claiming that listening to the music was beneficial. Rather, I defied you (or someone) to make that claim, since it is necessary to support the decision to allow your kids to listen to it. Why would you allow your kids to wallow in garbage without being able to identify some offsetting benefit? Merely because they like to wallow in garbage? Not good enough.

Re parenting choices, you are presenting a false dilemma here, as if the only two possible choices are 1) having no boundaries at all, or 2) imposing draconian and random boundaries without any explanations or discussions. Those are obviously not the only choices, and anecdotes about houses in which kids are "afraid" of their parents are entirely irrelevant. I impose limited but important boundaries and explain why the boundaries are important. I teach and reinforce certain values on an ongoing basis, and those values are reflected in the boundaries that I set. It's not like the rules come out of the blue, or make no sense to the kids. They fit with what my kids have been taught over the course of their lives. Based on your own claims, your boundaries apparently do not correspond with your teachings. Why wouldn't they?

Finally, you and others have repeatedly made the point that the more you prohibit something, the more likely they are to engage in that thing (see your "quite the contrary" comment above). That is simply not true--and can't possibly be true, as it violates the most fundamental rule of economics. When you subsidize something, you get more of that thing, and when you tax something, you get less. Freedoms are subsidies, and punishments are taxes. How does that play out in the real world? Simply put, straight-laced kids don't come from anything-goes households. They come from households with standards and rules.

Hmmm? .... Okay then ... get back to me if you catch your DD or DS's listening to crap, sneaking a drink from the liquor cabinet, taking an extra cupcake from the cupboard, hiding a paper they got a bad grade on, watching a PG movie that was off limits, turning a couch cushion over because they spilled a Pepsi on it, or whatever ... and you tell them :
it" can't possibly be true, as it violates the most fundamental rule of economics." ... I just never thought of that approach ... lemme know how it works out for you

[DonnieS]

G, we know our kids are going to listen to crap rap we dont approve of, they are going to watch movies we dont approve of, the point is they know we dont approve of it. I had a family member of one of my players come to a tournament with a t-shirt that was completely inappropriate, just to be sure you know what I am talking about the shirt said 'Fxxx the Establishment' with the f word spelled out. I told his father that he can either change shirts or leave. He changed shirts. The kids on the team saw me do it, the parents did as well, its not appropriate for a family activity and I did not want that around my families. I am sure that everyone is going to think I am a nazi - fine with me - but someone has to step up and say whats inapproprate. The kids are going to listen to the crap, my dd is probably listening now as I write this but she knows I think its inappropriate.

A family story about my dad, one of the most decent, quiet, good men you will ever see in your life, was about him leveling some jerk at a barbecue many years ago. This jerk started cursing around my mom , and apparently pretty bad, I have heard my dad say damn, shit, etc. so I figure it was worse. Some might consider that inappropriate but it laid down a boundary that people (including us kids and cousins in the family) knew would cause pain if we crossed.

Regarding drinking, our family is comprised of czech, germans, mexicans, swedes, and worst of us, most of us are Catholics. Heck, we are required to drink <lol>. There is alcohol around, wine, beer, etc. but a kid can have beer, or wine, at the house, interestingly they dont. Its there, but most of the kids are athletic and know what happens if they are caught out sneaking around drinking, knows what happens to the athletic careers. There are local kids who are great athletes who were caught drinking and lost a lot of their options for college choices, and you can bet we tell and retell those stories.

[GIMNEPIWO]

G, we know our kids are going to listen to crap rap we dont approve of, they are going to watch movies we dont approve of, the point is they know we dont approve of it. I had a family member of one of my players come to a tournament with a t-shirt that was completely inappropriate, just to be sure you know what I am talking about the shirt said 'Fxxx the Establishment' with the f word spelled out. I told his father that he can either change shirts or leave. He changed shirts. The kids on the team saw me do it, the parents did as well, its not appropriate for a family activity and I did not want that around my families. I am sure that everyone is going to think I am a nazi - fine with me - but someone has to step up and say whats inapproprate. The kids are going to listen to the crap, my dd is probably listening now as I write this but she knows I think its inappropriate.

A family story about my dad, one of the most decent, quiet, good men you will ever see in your life, was about him leveling some jerk at a barbecue many years ago. This jerk started cursing around my mom , and apparently pretty bad, I have heard my dad say damn, shit, etc. so I figure it was worse. Some might consider that inappropriate but it laid down a boundary that people (including us kids and cousins in the family) knew would cause pain if we crossed.

Regarding drinking, our family is comprised of czech, germans, mexicans, swedes, and worst of us, most of us are Catholics. Heck, we are required to drink <lol>. There is alcohol around, wine, beer, etc. but a kid can have beer, or wine, at the house, interestingly they dont. Its there, but most of the kids are athletic and know what happens if they are caught out sneaking around drinking, knows what happens to the athletic careers. There are local kids who are great athletes who were caught drinking and lost a lot of their options for college choices, and you can bet we tell and retell those stories.

LOL ! ... completely agree Donnie ... and I agree with Skarp on alot too, although not necessarily my style, it is working thus far for him ... not really sure what I said that would make the two of you think that I am not in agreement ... what seems to have whizzed on Skarp's Cap'n Crunch is that I say things like;
"and the point I was trying to make was that just by telling them NO NO NO ... does not make it a rule or a boundry ... they need to know why its a rule or boundry and what the consequences are "
&
" but there are households where so much is off limits without explanation that the kids lash out ... merely making a rule or boundry, without open conversation ( which you say you have had about the content of this crap music ) does not guarantee that your kids will stay away from it "
& I believe he is misinterpreting into a let 'them run wild' scenario, ( but I've yet to figure out how )

My kids were and are allowed to partake in the evil elixers at home if they so choose ... and it is rare when they do choose ... and when all their friends are doing it, mine end up being the Designated Drivers ... it seems that it is 'not as big of a deal' to them as it is their friends because it was not taboo at home ... An example would be two young adults going off to College, one from a house where they were never allowed to make a decision on their own, never felt* they were allowed to have an opinion, never allowed a drink etc etc etc ... and the other who was raised with some independence etc etc etc ... Which one is more likely to lash out ?

* I say 'never felt' because your child merely agreeing with you or agreeing with you in lieu of mounting a viable argument which you will then shoot down instead of listening, is not the same as them feeling like they have an opinion ...

As far as 'Appeal to Experience' being a fallacy ... I never said that experience was the only teacher ... I said it was the best teacher ... if Plato says otherwise than he was an idiot ... If anyone can say that they are not a better Parent now,or that they don't know more now than when their first child was born ... well, than their an idiot too ...

[Coach11]

I'm on kid number four.....and I still aint got a clue what I'm doing.

Just hope that when they bury me, they remember Dad loved 'em.

[GIMNEPIWO]

I'm on kid number four.....and I still aint got a clue what I'm doing.

Just hope that when they bury me, they remember Dad loved 'em.

You may not have a clue ... but you have more of a 'no clue' now that when you started ... at least I don't .. or do ... He*l .. I'm not sure ... Is it 5 o'clock yet ?

[MoeFoes]

I'm on kid number four.....and I still aint got a clue what I'm doing.

Just hope that when they bury me, they remember Dad loved 'em.

They always do & always will. Just being home is a challange for me. Work 3 dd's 2 in travel. & rec. With my schedule I get a lot of "Look its the guy in the picture"