ASA being sued

[anonlooker]

Not only will you get more PITCHER PARENTS, you will get more pitchers. A lot more pitchers.

I understand limiting innings pitched per day, but what about practice time? That has to figure significantly into overuse and repetitive motion injuries. Can you regulate that?

If a kid can only pitch 7 innings per day, and you have tournaments with 5 loser bracket games in a day, teams will have to carry 5 or more pitchers. That's probably about double what most teams have now. The demand for pitchers, already at a premium, will skyrocket.

In order to become an effective pitcher, with less game time available, kids will have to train even more than they already do.

Good pitching instructors will be swamped. The door will be open for marginally qualified and unscrupulous instructors, leading to poor training, poor mechanics, and increased incidence of injury.

You would also increase the risk of injury from batted balls. Untrained pitchers will make more mistakes, leading to more come backers, etc.

Additionally, ASA can mandate anything they want, but in SoCal and other parts of the country, there is very little ASA ball being played.

Finally, I find it hard to believe LL pitchers don't get injuries. Who limits practice time, or innings during non-LL play? Don't these kids also play travel ball? Does LL govern every tournamant in the country? Did Henry Owen get as good as he is pitching one game twice a week, and practicing for 20 minutes a day? I don't know, but I'm inclined to doubt it.

Limiting innings might be a start, but it's not a complete solution. And doesn't even begin to address what the college coaches are looking for from prospective pitchers. As long as that carrot is being dangled, and only the best are getting full rides, kids (and their parents) will continue to overdo it. And under this plan, there will be a lot more of them.

Feel free to let me know what I'm missing here.

Our young boy pitchers don't practice incessantly, do they? Why does it work for them, but not our little darlings?

There would be no increase in demand for pitchers, there would be a reduction in the the amount of teams....like baseball.

In the end, who gives a shit what a college coach wants, but I'm betting that they would like to see healthy pitchers throwing against high level hitters. That is exactly what would happen.

These assumptions have no basis in reality.

Boys don't practice? check
Half the teams will disappear? check
No one gives a shit what college coaches want? check
Sam can predict exactly what would happen? check

[Sam]

Not only will you get more PITCHER PARENTS, you will get more pitchers. A lot more pitchers.

I understand limiting innings pitched per day, but what about practice time? That has to figure significantly into overuse and repetitive motion injuries. Can you regulate that?

If a kid can only pitch 7 innings per day, and you have tournaments with 5 loser bracket games in a day, teams will have to carry 5 or more pitchers. That's probably about double what most teams have now. The demand for pitchers, already at a premium, will skyrocket.

In order to become an effective pitcher, with less game time available, kids will have to train even more than they already do.

Good pitching instructors will be swamped. The door will be open for marginally qualified and unscrupulous instructors, leading to poor training, poor mechanics, and increased incidence of injury.

You would also increase the risk of injury from batted balls. Untrained pitchers will make more mistakes, leading to more come backers, etc.

Additionally, ASA can mandate anything they want, but in SoCal and other parts of the country, there is very little ASA ball being played.

Finally, I find it hard to believe LL pitchers don't get injuries. Who limits practice time, or innings during non-LL play? Don't these kids also play travel ball? Does LL govern every tournamant in the country? Did Henry Owen get as good as he is pitching one game twice a week, and practicing for 20 minutes a day? I don't know, but I'm inclined to doubt it.

Limiting innings might be a start, but it's not a complete solution. And doesn't even begin to address what the college coaches are looking for from prospective pitchers. As long as that carrot is being dangled, and only the best are getting full rides, kids (and their parents) will continue to overdo it. And under this plan, there will be a lot more of them.

Feel free to let me know what I'm missing here.

Our young boy pitchers don't practice incessantly, do they? Why does it work for them, but not our little darlings?

There would be no increase in demand for pitchers, there would be a reduction in the the amount of teams....like baseball.

In the end, who gives a shit what a college coach wants, but I'm betting that they would like to see healthy pitchers throwing against high level hitters. That is exactly what would happen.

These assumptions have no basis in reality.

Boys don't practice? check
Half the teams will disappear? check
No one gives a shit what college coaches want? check
Sam can predict exactly what would happen? check

Ok...anonlooker....300 new 12U pitchers will spring up overnight. Check
Anybody with a shred of common sense can see what will happen. Sorry that leaves you out, my friend.

[AlwaysImprove]

I believe that limiting overuse is important. Luckily Sam came to this forum, and eteamz, and shared his experience, it was a valuable and important lesson for our family. No girl should be throwing 5/6 games a weekend, it is just too easy to get injured.

My daughter throws much harder after a break. I encourage her to ease into a routine as I also think this is when she is most susceptible to injury. The tight joints are able to throw harder, but they are also less loose, so it is easy for them to get sore and she may not realize it.

Now that she plays on a gold team, I think the problem is the other way around, she really does not get enough innings consecutively to get in a flow. A lot of 3 innings, 3 innings, 1 inning split with other pitchers. Then when we get to competitive play they are asking for a full game and our pitchers no longer seem to understand that concept.

There is the 2002 study which clearly shows overuse as a major reason for injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery). I suspect if they did the same study for girls they would see a similar trend. However, that study data is likely skewed. The harder throwing kids were going to see a lot more innings, and have more injuries. They have never gone back and seen if inning counts has made it better. For me there are still too many boys that end with a shoulder or elbow issue in their sophomore or junior year of high school, same as when we were kids.

I do not think boys have the formula correct. Many MLB and college pitchers rest most days, then warm up a little and walk into a competition and try to throw 90+ mph. Sam mentioned Steven Strasburg as an example, well guess what, Tommy John surgery and hoping for a good recovery. So boys have a lot of learning left on their side as well. Now Nolan Ryans, that is probably a better example, but I understood Nolan throw a lot of nights. Even if he did not throw in a game, he liked to get loose in the bullpen.

There are many batting practice pitchers in the MLB and at colleges that throw many nights a week and they do it for 20+ years. There was a study (I looked for a link but could not find it) on these pitchers and the belief was they tended to have better longevity than in-game pitchers because they were not throwing all out, with lots of rest between. They would throw at a decent pace many a night and occasional throw some hard pitches.

I suspect that parents and coaches are going to find it impossible to limit innings for a successful pitcher, so likely mandated limits is going to be the only answer.

[anonlooker]

No, 300 pitchers would not spring up overnight, any more than 50 teams would disappear overnight. Those are both extremes, and reality resides somewhere in the middle.

A lot of pitchers would come up from rec ball. Many of them way too early.

TB coaches already scout there. That practice would intensify, and unprepared pitchers would profligate, as would unqualified instructors, resulting in more, not less, pitching related injuries.

I'm not arguing that you're wrong in suggesting pitch counts, I'm just saying there are foreseeable consequences that should also be addressed.

Just like the foreseeable consequence involving the girl suing ASA.

OTB quoted a study which concludes...

...these results question the assumption that underhand pitching does not create significant stress on the shoulder and elbow. Further investigation is needed to fully determine the influence of underhand pitching on overuse injuries. Attention should be directed toward
prevention of injury by teaching proper pitching mechanics, strengthening the shoulder and rotator cuff musculature, and regulating the number of pitches and mound appearances for the female fast pitch softball pitcher.

That study is from 1998. I suspect the girl began pitching well after 1998, and had she and/or her parents done their due diligence, she might not be in the position she is in.

Was she taught proper mechanics? Did she strengthen her musculature? Did she ever ask to limit her pitch count? Did she stop pitching at the first symptoms of injury?

I'm sure you've watched the video posted on UCS, and heard her dad as he films her.

http://robocoach.websitetoolbox.com/pos ... 8&trail=30
or youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwqI1z9G3WQ

That is one proud papa! Didn't seem to mind a bit how much his kid was pitching, as long as he was getting those Ks on tape.

And now, "Oops, we screwed up. Let's find somebody to blame."

Pathetic.

[Sam]

Anon,

Thanks for the reply. The study you reference may have been available in 1998, but nobody in softball knew about it or the coaches knew and decided to help injure these girls anyway. I asked a well known Gold Coach on UCS about the advice given by coaches and instructors....he said that throwing a softball was different than throwing a baseball....which is the preface that all coaches use prior to asking the parent to be OK with throwing their DD the fourth time on elimination Saturday.

ASA (nor any of the other organizations) will act on this until they get sued. They are the only ones that can do anything about the problem. They fear that players will flock to other organizations if they take the lead in instituting max pitch limits. That is the big reason they won't do it.

The pitchers hurt all the time, but they have been raised like boys when it comes to softball. We, as coaches and parents, reward toughness in players. They don't let you know when their arm hurts. They tough it out.

So parents have no ability to act as a unit to protect the kids, the coaches think that it isn't in their best interest to do it.....so the organizations are the only player in the equation that can take action. They have chosen not to act and now they are getting sued. I think we should all be glad they are being sued and hope that these folks win their suit or at least that ASA gets the message. If Premier and ASA could get together and do this, the other orgs would fall into place....they would have no choice....or risk being sued themselves.

[anonlooker]

Sam,
I'm no legal expert, but as soon as ASA or Premier set a limit, they open themselves up to lawsuits from kids who didn't exceed that limit but still sustain injuries. And that will happen.

Some kids just shouldn't be pitchers. They aren't built for it. Others learn poor mechanics. Others don't train their bodies properly. Most practice too much. These issues probably contribute more to injury than pitch count, but injuries likely result from a combination of the above.

Let's say we meet in the middle on number of teams vs number of pitchers. Say there will be 75 teams carrying 6 pitchers, for a total of 450 pitchers. As opposed to the current 100 teams with 3 pitchers, for a total of 300 pitchers. Even that, 150 pitchers, is too many to just appear out of rec. So let's go further and say 40 coaches simply shut down their teams, leaving 60 teams, x 6, 360 pitchers. It's unrealistic to imagine that half the teams will shut down, so you will still have a net gain in the number of girls pitching.

If we use A&M's ratio of 10 healthy to 1 injured, since she's been around the game awhile, and agree that pitch count alone is not responsible for all of the injuries, and that some of these girls are prone to injuries no matter how much they pitch, you will have a net gain in the number of injured pitchers, roughly 6, just in SoCal, just in 12u.

Let me reiterate here that I agree with you - this is a problem. But the answer doesn't necessarily lie in mandating controls that may (note "may") end up exacerbating the situation. So instead of one game per day, why not two games per day? Then teams wouldn't need to add so many, if any, more pitchers. (ASA would still get sued, but that's going to happen in any case.) But it would stop the 4 or 5 games in a day, and that is a huge improvement in itself.

But even more than limits, the answer lies in educating coaches and parents of the dangers involved. This is where ASA and Premier can help the most. They could add extensive language to the coach certification process with respect to injury, signs of injury, etc. They could institute a program to certify pitching instructors. They could even create an online seminar that all pitcher's parents must complete before their kid is allowed to pitch (along the model of on-line traffic school). These programs would go a long way toward alleviating legal exposure for the organizations as well. And while this may seem contrary to my "personal responsibility" argument, it gives coaches and parents the information and tools that would enable them to better act responsibly.

The first objection, of course, will be cost. So charge each kid an extra $5 per year to play in your organization. Or charge coaches and parents for their certifications. On-line training and certification programs may have a high start up cost, but that would decrease once everything is in place and functioning.

Premier is in a perfect position to do this. They aren't facing a lawsuit, so it would be seen as "forward thinking", rather than "reactionary." They are new and growing, and it's a logical step in the maturation process. They aren't a bloated bureaucracy, so new programs are easier to implement. They may not have a surfeit of cash, but they could do it in steps, adding to it year over year, and offset the cost with nominal player registration and certification fees. If their decision to keep 14s at 40 feet is any indication, they already have player safety in mind. And in the end, they are us. They are coaches, and parents. They have seen exactly what you are talking about. They want to make the game better, and grow the sport. They have that opportunity here. If they don't do it, maybe Triple Crown will. Hell, ASA might even try it. But no one is in better position than Premier.

The second objection will be coaches and parents (see ACE certification) but that objection can be met head on if the program is substantive, has a clearly stated purpose, and is effective. The ACE program now is a joke and seen as a money grab. Well, make it more relevant. And if coaches don't want to accept the additional responsibility of understanding the dangers to the kids they are coaching, well, they'll be among the 40 teams that shut down. Adios, losers.

The third objection... I don't know. I'm sure there will be an outcry from some corners here on the Bucket, so that can be the third (and fourth, fifth, sixth ad nauseum) objection.

The point is that it will take a concerted effort, and time, to affect positive change. In the meantime, stay on your high horse. It suits you. One person can make a difference. You're that guy. You didn't sue ASA. You opted to inform people. It's working.

[superfan]

I don't agree with the lawsuit, but at least it started this conversation! I definately think people need to realize fastpitch pitchers are not robots and their bodies will show wear and tear. My DD is 17 and requires 2-3 days off pitching every week to be effective as well as not throw more than 3 games in a two day period. She recently pitched almost 10 games in 15 days and needed to take a couple of weeks off for the pain and inflammation in her wrist to subside. The other pitcher recently was out with back pain. Our team only has 2 pitchers and I feel too much wear and tear is being put on them. I feel teams should carry at least 3-4 pitchers so there are pitching options and pitching relief. This goes for catchers too. Coaches, players, and parents need to use common sense. Anything done in excess is unhealthy!!!

Perhaps if the other fielders were required to throw the ball as hard as they could 200-300 times in a day then do it again the next day and so on, there would be a little more light shed on this subject.

[anonlooker]

Was looking at t-shirts online and came across this one on the ASA ordering site...

"Softball"
"Pain is Temporary"

[Southpaw729]

What seems to be missing from the discussion here is pitch mechanics. Like baseball pitchers some softball pitchers don't have good mechanics and over burden their elbows, shoulders, wrists, knees, hips and ankles because of it. With the obsession by parents of pitchers to get their "stars" into travel many neglect to find a suitable coach to teach proper pitching mechanics. As well many girls simply are not adequately conditioned so as they tire their mechanics get lazy and they become more prone to injury.

Do pitchers throw too much...depends on the pitcher. Some girl's physiology allows for more wear and tear than others. Parents should pay attention not so much to the work load but to how your DD responds. Be sure she lets you know about unusual or reoccurring pains in the joints.

Otherwise...suck it up!

[MTR]

...these results question the assumption that underhand pitching does not create significant stress on the shoulder and elbow. Further investigation is needed to fully determine the influence of underhand pitching on overuse injuries. Attention should be directed toward
prevention of injury by teaching proper pitching mechanics, strengthening the shoulder and rotator cuff musculature, and regulating the number of pitches and mound appearances for the female fast pitch softball pitcher.

I don't think that was the original assumption used in justification. Strenuous and overuse of any body part is going to be stressful. I believe the assumption WAS that the underhand motion was not as stressful as that of the overhand pitching you see in baseball. Unfortunately, I wouls have to assume that softball enthusiasts and carrot chasers allowed that to morph into it not being stressful at all, which obviously, isn't so.

AFA Sam's perception that nothing will be done until someone is sued, I think that is a load of socialist crap. If you want to go after someone to blame, at least go after those who are to blame, not just the organization with the deepest pockets.

If Sam or any other poster makes a libelous comment about anyone, should that person be able to successfully sue HeyBucket and all moderators for allowing him to post? Or should Sam be held accountable for his own actions?