Shaved bats in HS play ??

[Skarp]

Skarp,

I'm not sure if I said that Bollinger improperly denied claims....I said they wouldn't pay unless you went to one of their approved surgeons. Big difference. You get what you pay for and you don't pay much for Bollinger, so you shouldn't expect much.

I deal a lot with title insurance companies. They almost never pay on initial claims even when they know they are going to pay in the end. Very profitable companies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bollinger supplemental insurance only? Kicks in to the extent that the injured is either uninsured or only partially insured? If so, this would tend to weaken the claim (which I myself have made) that insurers would be raising premiums dramatically if the risk of injury was truly substantial. Softball is not a sport with high relative participation, so it's possible that it wouldn't amount to an actuarial blip for primary insurers even if injury rates were unacceptably high. And since the Bollinger--the company which likely possesses the most softball-specific insurance expertise--doesn't wind up paying for most of the injuries, perhaps that argument doesn't hold a lot of water. I'm just hypothesizing though...

As far as title insurance companies go, habitually denying claims is a far less risky proposition. Juries are more likely to view resulting lawsuits as business/financial disputes without the same powerful human elements in play with the denial of health/life insurance. Still, it would be a relatively simple thing to prove that an insurance company is denying claims at a disproportionate rate, and that it is therefore in voiolation of California's ridiculously plaintiff-friendly unfair business practice statute (Cal BPC 17200).

[ssarge]

Scott, Both are possible and the best of engineering groups can do both. Exactly how, and how much we accomplish that is confidential for competitive reasons. However, the answer is very long and complex. Believe it or not, I would be willing to have the conversation in person but no notes, cameras or recording devices. You and I would have a great conversation because of your understanding of the swing. I think it would be enlightening for us both.

Wow, great offer. I would do this in a heartbeat, and would be happy to sign an NDA, etc. prior to doing so.

I am in SoCal a lot, watching my daughter play. Can you PM me your contact info, and I will call for an appt that would be convenient for you.

Best regards,

Scott

[NumeroUno]

Bollinger supplemental insurance ? Yes

I saw bats being tested, had computers set up, registering bat speed and the speed of the ball coming off the bat also registering the projector of the ball I think. Unfortunately I didn't pay much attention to that I was more impressed with the Olympic girls and top gold players hitting balls 300' at will. If I remember right balls were coming off the bats as low as 76 mph. These were brand new bats being tested

[DurfWerzel]

This has been a great discussion. But as a parent of a kid who has always preferred composite bats, I'd love to know more about what type of follow up testing (if any) is in place for bat manufacturers?

My personal experience with composites is that they all get hotter over time. and the degree to which the performance improves can be quite different from bat to bat. With some, it felt like the bat just went from being really stiff and actually under performing to just being normal. But with others (like the the gray label Catalyst -8) the performance impprovement was dramatic. With that specific bat (which my DD loved) I'd even go as far as saying that it was the only composite of its time that could absolutely hang with the 04 RT. Of course, we all know that bat (Catalyst) ended up getting banned. If my memory is accurate, I believe the story was that it did originally pass the 98 mph test but ASA re-tested a batch that was a few months old and they failed, so the decision was made to add it to the banned list.

After that incident, I don't recall any other bats getting banned based on "after use" type follow up testing. Yet, an extremely large number of bats (predominantly from one manufacturer) have been confiscated at Gold nationals the last 2 years. I think my DD's team had 4 bats (all the same make/model and one belonging to her) confiscated, and I certainly hadn't altered hers in any way, nor do I have any info that would make me think the other three were altered.

To me, there is just no way all those confiscated bats were players/parents who were intentionally cheating. Instead, it looked like either a) the ASA compression device was a broken joke, or b) a particular manufacturer had done a great job of selling a bat that passed straight out of the wrapper, but warmed up significantly after a little use.

If that's the case, why wasn't that bat caught and banned the same way the Catalyst was? If safety is the ultimate concern, I would think knowing exactly how a bat tests over time would be important because the total numbers of hot bats caused by not having any idea would dwarf the number of bats that were actually altered by cheaters.

I'm all for finding ways to go after the cheaters, but I think we should probably figure out first if manufacturers are devoting engineering resources to finding ways deliver the super hot bats regardless of the existence of current exit speed requirements.

[jofus]

I will extend to you the same offer I gave ssarge, In person, no notes, cameras, or recording devices. I will explain to you how it works, what they are trying to accomplish and why there is nothing sinister about any of it. Our testing starts in August with Slowpitch, Fastpitch right after. Bring your best hitter and I'll include her in the testing.

That would be a hard offer to pass up, IMHO

Both of them

[Tumblebug]

DurfWerzel,

Resin over fiber composites break down in the face of repeated impact. It’s undeniable, unpredictable, inevitable and unstoppable.

The difficulty is that several of the manufacturers got caught using the break-in phenomenon as a way to side step the rule. ASA figured it out. They designed the compression test as a band-aid and what you see is what you get. The consumer is the one that gets hurt in it all if indeed they didn’t understand that the bat would break down and get hotter. If they knew it, they deserve the sanctions as much as anybody. But there is no way to know the difference so everybody gets checked. The ABI protocol that was added to the certification testing will curtail the cheating but it won’t end it. The Slowpitch players already know how to make the ABI protocol moot. I can’t imagine that slowpitch is smarter than fastpitch.

Intra layer delamination is a fact and The ABI testing doesn’t change that. In reality, it proves it. Just one more turn than the test requires and the test is moot.

[Tumblebug]

I can’t imagine that slowpitch is smarter than fastpitch.

When it comes to making bats hotter they are

I don't know about smarter. Perhaps they are just more determined.

[madaboutsoftball]

Mr. Tumblebug

Can you shave a alloy bat? I have been told that you cannot.

[Tumblebug]

Mr. Tumblebug

Can you shave a alloy bat? I have been told that you cannot.

Alloy bats in slowpitch is where shaving started. It's usually done with an automotive hone or on a lathe. The thinner walls will provide higher performance until they fail. The process is very difficult to control and the performance improvement is so small that it really isn't worthwhile for the work and risk of ruining the bat that is involved.

[absdad]

Mr. Tumblebug

Can you shave a alloy bat? I have been told that you cannot.

Alloy bats in slowpitch is where shaving started. It's usually done with an automotive hone or on a lathe. The thinner walls will provide higher performance until they fail. The process is very difficult to control and the performance improvement is so small that it really isn't worthwhile for the work and risk of ruining the bat that is involved.

I know they're literally only taking off a few thousandths of an inch of the ID. Are the composites the same as the alloy bats, in that that they put them on a lathe and do the same thing? I guess I don't completely understand what the materials of a composite bat are. Are they a mesh/resin? I would think that turning the ID on a composite, they would break through the resin layer and get into the fibers. If indeed that is actually what's happening.