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Jury Idiocy Comes to Montana

What's on your mind?

by Skarp » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:56 pm

anonlooker wrote:But if you really want shorter paragraphs, simply think smaller thoughts. :o ;)

That or stop writing in stream of consciousness mode. Pascal's observation ("I have made this letter longer than usual, because I lack the time to make it short...) is so true.
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by Tumblebug » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:05 pm

So Sam, what bat does your DD use? There are plenty of non-performing products out there that will supposedly keep the opposing pitchers safe from your DD's well executed offensive efforts. Are you leading the softball world in saving the endangered pitcher species? If you are so acutely concerned about all pitcher's safety does your DD swing a wood bat? gotta start somewhere, right?

Or, maybe you are simply looking for something to gripe about while doing absolutely nothing to change it including being part of the"problem" yourself.

if you need a rolled up newspaper to start the trend LMK. I'll roll one up for you and put a grip on it.
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by SoCalASABlue » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:13 pm

Careful, Tumblebug. Remember what Sam has previously posted:

"Mine has been hit twice by your bats..." It's not often that inanimate objects not controlled by a human being hit the same player twice...may be a new lawsuit in the works...

And before the inevitable question, yes, my DD pitches...she wears a mask and her getting into proper fielding position after each pitch is overstressed to say the least...
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by nohesitation » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:04 pm

In light of the tragic death of this young man, I think we should possibly consider lowering the performance level of the metal and composite type bats before something like this happens in softball. ASA should be put on notice, because they are responsible for setting the standards.

As our girls get stronger, the exit speeds will increase. The pitchers will get hit, and someday one could die. A well-placed shot in the lower abdomen could rupture an artery, for example. I think most of us can see that the pop these girls are getting from the high performance bats is putting the pitcher at great risk. Some have suggested that using wood bats would be a safer alternative. I don’t think so, because wood bats break, and large, sharp wood projectiles on the field are not safe. So I would like to lower metal and composite bat exit speeds to approximate those of wood bat exit speeds. Also, 14u and up should pitch at 43 ft., and the softball weights should be modified to be lighter (5.5 oz), while keeping the ball compression the same or harder to maintain its speed. I would also like to see 65’ bases, outfield fences which are 6’ high and 200’ deep, and no more drop-dead and revert-back friendlies or tournaments.

For the record my DD plays 1B and is in pitching rehab (back stuff). She has never been hit by a line drive. If a player was injured by a line drive and the case went to court, I could not find fault with the bat companies for a bat that performed as promised to guidelines set by ASA.
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by anonlooker » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:15 pm

Nohesitation,
Forward your post to the folks at Premier Fastpitch. Ask them to publicly announce the changes you suggest.
ASA will hold a meeting and adopt them post haste! :lol:
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by Tumblebug » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:43 pm

SoCalASABlue wrote:Careful, Tumblebug. Remember what Sam has previously posted:

"Mine has been hit twice by your bats..." It's not often that inanimate objects not controlled by a human being hit the same player twice...may be a new lawsuit in the works...

And before the inevitable question, yes, my DD pitches...she wears a mask and her getting into proper fielding position after each pitch is overstressed to say the least...


I suppose that post sounds antagonistic. I don't really feel that way. I just hate the idea that I am somehow the bad guy because I make a legal product that the players want.

Let me tell you a story: I was at a Little League All Star game my son was playing in and a kid, playing third, was playing up for what his coach thought was going to be bunt. The hitter yanks one right at the third baseman who takes it off his melon. Dad comes up to me screaming how my bat's not safe and nobody should be allowed to use it. I let him vent cuz he's upset. Two innings later his son, who came back into the game, comes to the plate and you can guess what he is swinging. Yep, you guessed it. It was the exact same model Anderson bat that dad lit me up me for and his son is twenty pounds heavier than the kid that hit him. I never got an apology for being screamed at.

I always wonder what bats the crusaders use. I don't wish harm on anyone but nobody joins the safety crusade unless they or someone they know were unlucky enough to be in harms way when the the probability strikes.

The report someone referenced talked about 106k softball injuries in a year. Do you realize how small that number is when you consider the number of player, in the number of game, in the number of at-bats?

We did an independent study on softball injuries that combined the numbers available form many sources. The study included the thirty years before aluminum and the thirty years after. The numbers get tiny when you only look at the injuries that involved a batted ball, approximately 2 percent. The biggest number were hurt base running. Three times as many kids are injured by a thrown ball than a hit ball. There was a bigger incidence of batters hitting themselves with a batted ball than them hitting others. Softball is actually statistically safer than baseball and baseball is pretty doggone safe, which kinda puts a kink in the softball is more dangerous argument. No matter what logic I use I end up defending myself from the crusaders and the crusaders are usually using my bat too.

So I think it's a fair question: What bat does your DD use?

Before you ask, I won't publish the internal documents that we compiled here or anywhere else. The numbers overwhelmingly support my position but I was trying to establish a personal and company position on the matter. I do not want to become the source for that kind of information for either side of the argument. There are plenty of places for someone who is interested to do the footwork themselves and come to their own conclusions. The organizing bodies of the game and the federal government are the places I usually quote. I did enough work to convince myself that the number didn't rise, that the game is safe and to feel good about what I do. That is all it was intended for. I doubt we even have it anymore. I believe we gave it all up for someone's thesis. It's all findable in other places.
Last edited by Tumblebug on Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Tumblebug » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:48 pm

sheeeesh, I guess that qualifies as long paragraphs. Maybe Skarp could help me with a little editing.
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by Skarp » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:04 am

Tumblebug wrote:sheeeesh, I guess that qualifies as long paragraphs. Maybe Skarp could help me with a little editing.

Okay. Your last paragraph should read "I no longer have a copy of the results of the study, or I would happily provide it for you."...because I can't think of any reason why you shouldn't be willing to publicize your findings.

Your quandary as a manufacturer isn't ultimately with logic (or lack thereof). It's with the fact that no matter where the performance limits are drawn you will always be susceptible to precisely the same claims and complaints. Opinions re acceptable risk run the entire spectrum, so there will always be folks on either side of the line. Which is why it needs to be the exclusive province of governing bodies to determine safety standards, and ultimately the parents' responsibility to make the decisions they believe are in the best interests of their kids. Aside from meeting market demand, bat manufacturers should have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

These types of debates are healthy though, as they, together with statistical evidence, inform decisions on safety standards. Statistics are only part of the equation. Governing bodies must be responsive to the risk tolerances of the majority of participants they represent, whether or not those tolerances are objectively reasonable.
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by Tumblebug » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:52 am

Skarp wrote:
Tumblebug wrote:sheeeesh, I guess that qualifies as long paragraphs. Maybe Skarp could help me with a little editing.

Okay. Your last paragraph should read "I no longer have a copy of the results of the study, or I would happily provide it for you."...because I can't think of any reason why you shouldn't be willing to publicize your findings.
Your quandary as a manufacturer isn't ultimately with logic (or lack thereof). It's with the fact that no matter where the performance limits are drawn you will always be susceptible to precisely the same claims and complaints. Opinions re acceptable risk run the entire spectrum, so there will always be folks on either side of the line. Which is why it needs to be the exclusive province of governing bodies to determine safety standards, and ultimately the parents' responsibility to make the decisions they believe are in the best interests of their kids. Aside from meeting market demand, bat manufacturers should have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

These types of debates are healthy though, as they, together with statistical evidence, inform decisions on safety standards. Statistics are only part of the equation. Governing bodies must be responsive to the risk tolerances of the majority of participants they represent, whether or not those tolerances are objectively reasonable.


We never did the final work, it ended in a pile of notes, web sites and the scribbled analysis. I never wrote it in a finished form. Like I said, I believe we gave it all up to a grad student. And she probably finished it. I know she finished up school and went to work in the pacific Northwest somewhere. If she is willing I'd make it available on our website. That's actually a pretty good idea.
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by SkinnyFats » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:47 am

Skarp wrote:Define "safe."

APRT = available pitcher reaction time.

A recent study [Nicholls, et al., 2003] investigated player safety concerning ball exit speed for the sport of baseball and concluded that the maximum safe initial batted-ball velocity that a pitcher can react to is approximately 148 km/h (92 mph), which translates into an APRT of 0.425 seconds. A second study [Owings, et al., 2003] was conducted investigating the available pitcher reaction time as a consideration in design constraints for baseballs and baseball bats for various age groups. They found that for the 16-year age group, a minimum reaction time of 0.409sec. is necessary to reduce the potential for serious or catastrophic injury. A third study conducted by the NCAA tested a variety of bats on a specially designed batting machine located at the University of Massachusetts in Lowell, [Mississippi State University, 2002]. The recommendation from this study was to drop the exit speed to no more than 149.7 km/h (93 mph) in collegiate baseball, which translates into an APRT of 0.420 seconds.
Last edited by SkinnyFats on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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