Jury Idiocy Comes to Montana

[Crabby_Bob]

Question Crabby... Dont they treat the balls used in MLB before games. For safety sake wouldnt you want used balls for games instead of new ones....

Great question, and one you probably won't like the answer to. All MLB balls are indeed treated before the game. They are rubbed down with Lena Blackburne Baseball Rubbing Mud, gathered from a mud hole in New Jersey. And why are they rubbed down?

On August 16, 1920, Ray Chapman, a shortstop for the Cleveland Indians, was crowding the plate in the top of the fifth inning when he was struck in the head by an underhand curve ball from New York Yankees pitcher Carl Mays.

Days later, Chapman became the first and only player killed by a pitch in Major League history.

"From that point forward the umpires were looking for a way to get a better grip for the pitcher on a new baseball," Bintliff says. "They tried tobacco juice, shoe polish, dirt from the infield and all of those things scarred or damaged the leather.

Lena Blackburne, a manager for the Philadelphia Athletics, had an idea. He cured and aged mud from a fishing hole near his home and took it back to the Athletics clubhouse.

It worked, and soon Blackburne was getting telegrams from teams asking for the "magic mud." By 1938 it was used by every team in the majors.

With all of the advances in baseball equipment over the years, the mud is still important, says Atlanta Braves pitcher Tim Hudson.

"A brand new pearl has kind of a slick finish on it," Hudson told CNN. "I don't think there's a hitter that's going to stand in the box without one being rubbed up because you just don't get a real good grip on it. It's pretty dangerous."

Safety first, eh? You hot bat fans could learn a lot from this story. Major League batters, some of the best athletes in the world, prepared and balanced, wearing helmets, wouldn't stand in there because it is too dangerous. But you want softball pitchers - little kids, off balance, wearing a visor - to tough it out and defend themselves. You guys are idiots.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/28/baseball.mud/index.html

When Ray Chapman was hit, it was variously described as "late afternoon" or "twilight". There were no night games in that era so it's apparent the light was less than optimal. This was the end of the spitball era and pitchers would also routinely darken the ball to make it less visible.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Chapman_beaning

Subsequently, the balls were replaced much more often. The use of mud, starting 18 years after Chapman's death, is to take the slick off; CNN is full of karpola. Ultimately batting helmets were required and, after the Mike Coolbaugh tragedy, also required for base coaches. Sadly, a helmet would not have saved Mr. Coolbaugh as he was hit in the neck.

[MoeFoes]

Question Crabby... Dont they treat the balls used in MLB before games. For safety sake wouldnt you want used balls for games instead of new ones....

Great question, and one you probably won't like the answer to. All MLB balls are indeed treated before the game. They are rubbed down with Lena Blackburne Baseball Rubbing Mud, gathered from a mud hole in New Jersey. And why are they rubbed down?

On August 16, 1920, Ray Chapman, a shortstop for the Cleveland Indians, was crowding the plate in the top of the fifth inning when he was struck in the head by an underhand curve ball from New York Yankees pitcher Carl Mays.

Days later, Chapman became the first and only player killed by a pitch in Major League history.

"From that point forward the umpires were looking for a way to get a better grip for the pitcher on a new baseball," Bintliff says. "They tried tobacco juice, shoe polish, dirt from the infield and all of those things scarred or damaged the leather.

Lena Blackburne, a manager for the Philadelphia Athletics, had an idea. He cured and aged mud from a fishing hole near his home and took it back to the Athletics clubhouse.

It worked, and soon Blackburne was getting telegrams from teams asking for the "magic mud." By 1938 it was used by every team in the majors.

With all of the advances in baseball equipment over the years, the mud is still important, says Atlanta Braves pitcher Tim Hudson.

"A brand new pearl has kind of a slick finish on it," Hudson told CNN. "I don't think there's a hitter that's going to stand in the box without one being rubbed up because you just don't get a real good grip on it. It's pretty dangerous."

Safety first, eh? You hot bat fans could learn a lot from this story. Major League batters, some of the best athletes in the world, prepared and balanced, wearing helmets, wouldn't stand in there because it is too dangerous. But you want softball pitchers - little kids, off balance, wearing a visor - to tough it out and defend themselves. You guys are idiots.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/28/baseball.mud/index.html

When Ray Chapman was hit, it was variously described as "late afternoon" or "twilight". There were no night games in that era so it's apparent the light was less than optimal. This was the end of the spitball era and pitchers would also routinely darken the ball to make it less visible.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Chapman_beaning

Subsequently, the balls were replaced much more often. The use of mud, starting 18 years after Chapman's death, is to take the slick off; CNN is full of karpola. Ultimately batting helmets were required and, after the Mike Coolbaugh tragedy, also required for base coaches. Sadly, a helmet would not have saved Mr. Coolbaugh as he was hit in the neck.

If your asking a 14U if she's rather be hit at 88mph or 98mph I think her answer would be not at all. My question is simply "The ball". I notice in 10U all stars the soft dot ball takes away the whole HOT BAT thing. But in travel ball they all require the use of a new ball. A new ball has the most pop off the bat. And is actually the most dangerous.

I hosted a slow pitch home run derby a few years back and the guys were pissed that I used old balls. So I threw in a few new ones in there. Almost every new ball fell some where in egypt. The old ones barely made it over the fence. These were grown men swinging loaded bats.

So my question is that if they just adjusted the core of the ball wouldn't that help the pitchers out without changing the game itself......

[Crabby_Bob]

[...]

If your asking a 14U if she's rather be hit at 88mph or 98mph I think her answer would be not at all. My question is simply "The ball". I notice in 10U all stars the soft dot ball takes away the whole HOT BAT thing. But in travel ball they all require the use of a new ball. A new ball has the most pop off the bat. And is actually the most dangerous.

I hosted a slow pitch home run derby a few years back and the guys were pissed that I used old balls. So I threw in a few new ones in there. Almost every new ball fell some where in egypt. The old ones barely made it over the fence. These were grown men swinging loaded bats.

So my question is that if they just adjusted the core of the ball wouldn't that help the pitchers out without changing the game itself......

If you change the specifications of the ball or bat, it fundamentally changes the game, to the benefit or detriment of anyone unfortunate enough to be hit. ASA has changed both in response to the game becoming "too hot." The old ball spec here: http://www.phys.utk.edu/demoroom/MECH/CHOOSETBALLS_files/ASA_Bat_Ball_Certification_Program_Overview.pdf showing diamond stamp balls were up to 525# max. Now, diamond stamps are 300# max: http://www.asasoftball.com/about/certified_equipment.asp It's all about regulating the efficiency of the ball/bat collision.

[SkinnyFats]

Once upon a time, Mr. Arthur Bucket had a little girl. He named her Princess. Eventually A. Bucket's little Princess grew up and learned how to drive. Boy was she excited! Arthur got her a car, and off she went to her high school.

But there was trouble in paradise. It seems that there was an elementary school along her route to the high school. Officials had decided that for safety's sake, the speed limit in the school zone would be 25 miles per hour. They felt that was safer for the kids. They even came up with a specification for the speed limit - they installed a radar gun. If cars registered above 25 mph on the gun, they were ticketed. All was well.

But Princess didn't like to drive 25. "Daddy, 25 mph is soooooo slow. A lot of the other kids have a little gizmo on the front of their cars, and they can drive faster. Can you get one for me, pleeeeeeeease?"

A. Bucket was intrigued. He went out onto the net, and sure enough he located the device. It played havoc with the radar, and made Princess' car read 25 on the gun when it was actually going 40. Fantastic! He installed the little black box, and again all was well at A. Bucket's house. His daughter was barreling along, going 40 in the school zone, clocking in at 25, happy as can be.

Now of course, there were a few curmudgeons out on the internet that kept blabbing along, saying kid's lives were being put into danger. But A. Bucket didn't care. What the hell did they know? Princess' car met the spec. And besides, everyone knew that walking to school was a dangerous activity. Those little kid's parents knew the risks. They could always home school their kids if they didn't like it.

One day, tragedy struck at the elementary school. A small kid, (a bit uncoordinated - not the best athlete in school), slipped and fell into the street. Princess was cruising along at her usual 40 mph, and unfortunately she hit the little tyke.

Princess was devastated. She watched the little guy go into convulsions and die right there in front of her. It was tough to sleep. She didn't really want to drive to school any more.

A. Bucket tried explaining to her, "Accidents happen. The stupid kid should have been more careful. His Dad should have sent him to agility training. It wasn't your fault".

"But Daddy", Princess asked, "Maybe if I was only going 25, he'd still be alive? Maybe he could have moved out of the way in time? Maybe he would have been hurt, but he would be OK?"

"Who knows, Princess, who knows? Your car met the spec. Besides, if you'd been driving 25, he would have died anyway. Nothing could have prevented it."

But sometimes, late at night, A. Bucket wondered.....

[SkinnyFats]

Just one more post to make me want to put you on my ignore list

You're the tool that wants to thin the herd, right?

[dittoz]

Those are baseball numbers and aren't accurate. There is a difference in speed with the speed a pitch leaves a pitchers hand with the speed it gets to the plate. Softballs will have the same physics. Do the math. A reduction to 88mph from 98mph gives the pitcher at least 11% more time. When you are jerking your head to avoid being hit, this is an eternity.

Ummm... 'scuse me sir, but the numbers are based on baseball because this whole thing resulted from a baseball incident and they're actually very close to accurate. I'm also not talking about a pitcher's ball - maybe you are. Not sure why though - this was about bats and batted balls wasn't it?

Now to reiterate dem fax, I don't have the actual speed deterioration figured yet, but based on laws of common sense, one can pretty say there is most certainly NOT an 11% fall off in speed in the 4/10 sec it takes to reach the pitcher. If that were the case, then the ball would fly for no more than 3 second before falling straight down...

Now on to your comment of an additional 10% time; 10% of 4/10 of a sec is .04 seconds. No matter how hard you try, I KNOW none of use here have that kind of reaction time, nor could the pitcher this whole thing is referencing have had enough time to get from the point of "never got a glove on it" to being able to see it , react to it, and then move his glove into position to defend in that less than a literal eye-blink (which by the way is general accepted to be approx 3/10 of a sec in the best of circumstances). .04 secs is just not enough any way you spin it.

[SkinnyFats]

Dittoz, I tried to answer this once before; I'll try again with an example.

Let's say a major league batter hits .300 against a guy throwing 90 mph fastballs. If you follow your train of thought, you'd expect him to hit maybe .320 against a guy throwing 80, and maybe .340 against a guy who only throws 70. After all, there's not a lot of difference in reaction time between the speeds, right?

Clearly that's not the case. He's gonna crush 70 mph fastballs; it's batting practice, home run derby time. There's sort of a fixed, base time it takes humans to react to anything. Any time on top of that is much more significant than the incremental change in time would seem to indicate. It's not at all linear.

And unless you're a turtle, you can jerk your head pretty far in a very short period of time, especially if your life is on the line. He doesn't have to get his glove up and catch the ball - he just needs to avoid having it hit him in the head.

[hotwheels]

ORALE!

[Skarp]

Softball is NOT an inherently DANGEROUS sport. It is a sport where a participant risks INJURY.

Can you explain to me how these two statements are not directly contradictory?

Allowing a toddler to chase crickets at the edge of a 100 foot cliff is not an injury risk to me....it is what I would classify as dangerous....an activity which could cost one their life.

Yes. Chasing crickets at the edge of a cliff is dangerous. Because of the cliff. Similarly, playing softball is dangerous...because of the nature of the sport. It doesn't matter how well trained you are, you are one bad hop away from a broken nose or worse. The sport is played with hard balls and hard bats, both of which travel at high velocity. The sport is inherently dangerous.

Different people have different tolerances for risk. That doesn't make them idiots, or bad parents. How about the parents of pole-vaulters? Are they idiots? That sport is so dangerous that kids arguably shouldn't be allowed to participate in it at all. But many do. Should everyone be governed by the risk tolerance of the most risk-averse among us?

Every weekend, thousands of kids go out and play softball with these high end bats. Thousands of hits, thousands of opportunities for a kid to get killed. And yet it very rarely happens. Speaking for myself, that fact makes the value that my daughter gets out of participating well worth the associated risk. If they impose more stringent safety standards, I'm fine with that. If they leave things as-is, I won't lose any sleep over it.

Also, it strikes me as somewhat patronizing to assume that teen-aged kids don't understand the dangers of the sport. They've all been beaned, taken bad hops to the face, and had enough close calls with rocket shots to be well aware of what could possibly happen to them. Lots of kids decide that the sport isn't for them at a much earlier age. Those who stick with it know exactly what they are dealing with....probably better than we do.

My kid would disown me if I tried pulling her out of the sport. But according to the logic of the arguments being made here, I'm an idiot if I don't.

[dittoz]

Skinny, I understand 100% what it is you're saying, I just don't see it as relevant. Now, like Sam you're talking about a hitter's reaction time to a pitched ball. Whole 'nuther horse and color when you take into account the hitter is stationary and expecting the ball at a given spot (or close to it) at a roughly predictable moment. The batter is dug in, bat at ready, muscles primed and loose - ready to go. Now, consider the pitcher who has just delivered the ball, is quite often off balance and definitely not in his best "ready" position. Heck, we've even see F5 get obliterated by hard hit balls and they're expecting them...

Yes, it's amazing how fast we can react when we need to, but the addition of a mere 10% of "fast-ass'd" isn't sufficient to allow an unplanned reaction. Agree or not, I think the proof is in the pudding when we see wood bat hitters still destroying pitchers.

Bottom line here is, MLB hitters hit pitchers all the time, same with FP and probably even more so with SP. Unfortunately, a certain number of those hits are head-shots. The ball comes off a wood bat HARD, and whether the pitcher can react at inhuman speed, or more on the level of a turtle, the fact is it does happen and the difference in bats just hasn't been demonstrated to be the sole culprit in these instances. Less obvious still is the need of the manufacturer to put a warning label on them warning all those within range that they could get hurt. Why not put those same stickers on the ball? The really fast car that drove them to their game? How about the high-energy drink so many consume? I'm sorry - we all know these kids are using high-end bats and if folks don't realize that their DD and DS can get hurt standing 35' or 55' from a hitter, then maybe they need to reconsider a few things in life first.