Jury Idiocy Comes to Montana

[SkinnyFats]

Quote from Stephen D. Keener, Little League's Chief Executive Officer:

We believe that if kids were mandated to use wood, there would be a decline in participation. Our sole reason for attending these meetings and hearings is to make sure that kids are not turned off from the game.

Don't fear wooden bats. Just teach your kids to hit instead.

[absdad]

I'm wonder what exactly it is that can be taught, to a 1st yr 10u girl, swinging a hunk maple. I'm not exactly for a ban, I think the bats can be cooled off to come in line with wood bat performance.

Teach her the same things that were taught to kids forever before aluminum bats came onto the scene.


The problem with lowering the standards and still allowing aluminum and composite is illustrated by the following quote:

While higher standards are better than no standards, because the standards can be circumvented there is a need for the outright elimination of the use of aluminum bats at the college level. A recent study by the University of Massachusetts found that a loophole exists in the new aluminum bat standards (Hawes, 2000). This research shows that it is possible to physically change the center of swing gravity with an aluminum bat. This is done using a technological weight-shifting technique in manufacturing the aluminum bat. This center of gravity change allows the aluminum bat to still meet bat standards but when used in the field, the batted ball speed may greatly exceed the standard ball exit speed. With wooden bats, however, it is not possible to shift the center of gravity in order to achieve this advantage. This loophole in the aluminum-bat rules will allow manufacturers to create an aluminum hot bat capable of harder hits which will again lead to a greater safety hazard for infielders and pitchers (Hawes, 2000).

Hmmm, sounds a lot like a Rocketech, doesn't it? Heybucket's favorite bat.

Don't fear wooden bats. Just teach your kids to hit instead.

I guess I'm showing my age then, huh? My first bat was a crappy little aluminum "Adirondack" something or other. I never played ball much beyond jr high, so never really dealt with wood bats. I know... people were walking before they learned to run.

[SkinnyFats]

Choosing exit speeds appropriate for various levels of play is the responsibility of the sanctioning bodies...all of whom are fully aware that composite bats "open up" as they get broken in. It's not as if the companies seek to hide that propensity...quite the contrary.

You're exactly right. The manufacturers are downright gleeful at their ability to exceed the bat standards. As an example, here's the text for an Easton ad:

Witness the world's first carbon nanotube all-composite bat, fancy NASA-speak for fully capable of beaning the third baseman. The carbon-composite material is 16 times stronger than steel, aligned so as to widen the sweet spot across the entire barrel. The handle flexes slightly, catapulting the ball on contact. Somehow it's completely legal.

It's up to the sanctioning bodies to ban these bats completely. Then bubbas can buy them and use them for home run contests, but they won't be killing people with them.

[SkinnyFats]

I guess I'm showing my age then, huh? My first bat was a crappy little aluminum "Adirondack" something or other. I never played ball much beyond jr high, so never really dealt with wood bats. I know... people were walking before they learned to run.

I can hit the ball further today with a hot bat than I could 25 years ago. Since I haven't used "the cream" or "the clear", I don't think it's my body that's making the difference. These things are dangerous.

[absdad]

I guess I'm showing my age then, huh? My first bat was a crappy little aluminum "Adirondack" something or other. I never played ball much beyond jr high, so never really dealt with wood bats. I know... people were walking before they learned to run.

I can hit the ball further today with a hot bat than I could 25 years ago. Since I haven't used "the cream" or "the clear", I don't think it's my body that's making the difference. These things are dangerous.

That was the point that Sam was making; people WANT those hot bats. Obviously there is no substitute for proper mechanics. People want their little Suzy hitting the fence, the opposing pitcher is of little concern to most. Nothing is ever going to change unless people lobby the sanctioning bodies to do something. Hell, we see it on every SB forum; some mom desperately seeking a 2007 Phenix, or some such other monster. Christmas is coming up.

[dittoz]

So I read the first 10 or so pages of this post and then did some math after reading and re-reading and re-re-reading the "teach your daughter to hit" comments...

This particular incident occured in baseball where the rubber is at 60' 6". Just for the sake of argument, I used a pitcher distance at ball contact of 55' - in all probability, it's closer to 50' but too bad...

If the ball comes off the bat at 100 mph, it's to the 55' point in .38 secs
If the ball comes off the bat at 98 mph, it takes .39 secs to get to the same point.
Not a lot different...

Go all the way down to 85 mph and it still takes only .44 secs - still not a huge difference.

Now if the numbers don't mean much, I'm fairly certain I see MLB pitchers still getting hit by come-backers that they were unable to get a glove on. Sure, the hitters are bigger and stronger than the 17/18 yr olds playing legion ball, but then the pitchers should be faster (in theory) too.

While I tend to agree that the bats just don't need to be this hot, I don't know that I see enough of a variation from high-end composite to low-end wood to show a parallel between bat promotion and company neglegence and responsibility for not putting some sticker on a bat so junior will realize he's playing a dangerous sport.

Football helmets DO have the stickers and so do softball helmets. In fact it wasn't all that long ago that ASA mandated that stupid NOCSAE certification labels be on helmets too. Not that I know everything (remember, I'm from NorCal), but I've yet to hear of a player reading that sticker and deciding to not play !!

[Sam]

Your opinion is that the spec is too high. And you've got volumes of data to back that up, right? I mean, we ALL know more than the corporations, right?

Sure - I've got lots and lots and lots and lots of data to back that up. You want me to start posting it? Better get your reading glasses out.

Do you honestly think that all these bats are defective, and that all the bat manufacturers know it, and they're still selling them? Regardless of the limits imposed on them?

Absolutely.

And you realize that there are many cases of severe injuries with balls of wood bats, and crappy walmart bats. Are those defective too?? What's a safe bat?

And what you're talking about in the second part is negligence, not defective bats. Much harder to prove. Especially when they are making bats that MEET imposed safety restrictions set by the sanctioning bodies.

We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree. I'm of the opinion that a good hitter, can nail the fence with a crap bat regardless. And unfortunately, also hit and injure (possibly even kill) a player.

Name one that didn't happen to a professional baseball player.

[Sam]

You guys can talk about the demand for hot bats all you want....and I realize nothing will be done until the ultimate tragedy takes place in softball....and THAT is when the pitchers' parents will finally wake up and refuse to let their DDs take the circle.

And then what will you "bubble people" do???? Have your own DDs pitch? Get rid of the pitching position and use a machine? Coach pitch? Parent pitch?

Softball is NOT an inherently DANGEROUS sport. It is a sport where a participant risks INJURY. What you people are promoting IS DANGEROUS. You are promoting keeping the same standards for the hot bats....bats which will be used, eventually, to kill a young lady. Then you will come back with "well her coaches and parents should have worked more on her reaction times." You people will say anything to keep the bats that make everyone think your DD is actually a good hitter.

I'm waiting for the pitchers' parents reaction time to this idiocy will kick in....

[SkinnyFats]

Re: dittoz posts.

Remember that when discussing bat speed, etc. we are talking about what happens at the margins of human reaction times. When you look at the reaction time numbers, it doesn't seem like 10 or 15 mph makes a lot of difference. In actuality, it makes an enormous difference. Take baseball pitchers, for instance. If you throw a 92 mph fastball, you potentially can pitch in the majors (assuming a lot of other things - ignore those for now). However, if you can only throw 80, you're either tossing batting practice or you're throwing a knuckleball. Clearly, 12 or 15 mph makes a HUGE difference in a batter's ability to hit the ball. It makes a similar difference in a pitcher's ability to defend themselves.

Now, the difference a 50 and a 62 mph fastball, to a major leaguer, doesn't matter. They crush it. Similarly, a difference between 140 and 152 also makes no difference. No one can hit it. But here we're discussing a time that was designed way back when to be just about right to match pitcher and batter fairly. Thus the decision for where to place the mound was born.

Hot bats distort this balance, but only in one direction. If suddenly pitchers had some piece of equipment that would enable them to throw the ball 15 mph faster than they could before, batter's parents would howl in protest. Suddenly their kid couldn't hit. But pitcher's parent's concerns are ignored, because the batter's advantage isn't as obvious, and besides, "chicks dig the long ball". The pitcher knew the risks. Too bad for them. Maybe they should play right field. And there's lots of money to be made selling hot bats.

In addition, as I've stated several times, I believe the actual ball speed advantage of these bats is huge.

"Any idiot can see that the ball jumps off an aluminum bat faster than off of a wooden bat," said Jim Morris, head baseball coach at the University of Miami.

Even when the hot bats meet the same spec as a wooden bat, there's a huge difference in the ACTUAL performance of the bats. We're fooling around with kid's safety here, and I for one don't like it.

[Crabby_Bob]

Everybody is talking about the bats. Bats are rated at speeds right. Well arent the balls used rated just the same?
But why not just use a soft dot in all divisions? The game would suck and no one would want to play it or watch it but it would be safe......

You beat me to it. The balls are rated by COR and compression. Weren't they harder in the past? If we go back to wood bat performance, do we get the old balls back? Return pitchers to 40'?