Jury Idiocy Comes to Montana

[hotwheels]

I am not a bat manufacturer myself but I'll play one right now here on the bucket.....But, please don't make them out to be saints....The manufacturers are NOT trying to make the bats safer, they are trying to make sure they can pass the test! That's it.....Their concern is not one of safety it is one of SALES! They have to abide the by the rules made by others.....If there were no rules then the batboys would be making them hit harder.....You can bet on that!

[ATD]

Uh.....every kid that plays baseball or softball makes the conscious decision to play the game KNOWING that they could be killed on any given play???? That's rich.

The jury found that the kid absolutely had no idea he could get killed.

Ask your DD if she knows that she could be killed playing softball. Let us know what she says.

The truth is that we expect the organizations to police the manufacturers to provide safe equipment. When it comes to bats, the hitters' parents have influenced the organizations to leave the bat performance levels at dangerous maximums in order to make up for their kids' lack of actual hitting ability. They will argue that the levels today are as safe as they can be....because they won't admit their kid sucks.

For someone who has come on here crying like a baby about overuse injury and lecturing, this stance and about face you have suddenly taken is quite baffling. If you are unsure or not comfortable or convinced that as a pitcher your child that you are responsible and sole decision maker for is remotely unsafe beyond your comfort level then have them play right field with a mask and helmet. Or better yet, have your pitcher where a MASK for starters, which the parents he also failed to make him do. Or just have them read books on the weekend instead. He couldve gotten hit on the temple with a $10 T-Ball bat and it could've been fatal. We all have kids that play sports every day and yes if my child got killed via an accident I would be very angry. Unless the bat was defective, altered, the risk of getting killed on the field is about the same as if we took a Sunday drive in CA or crashed on their bikes down the street. Statistically the same.

[absdad]

I am not a bat manufacturer myself but I'll play one right now here on the bucket.....But, please don't make them out to be saints....The manufacturers are NOT trying to make the bats safer, they are trying to make sure they can pass the test! That's it.....Their concern is not one of safety it is one of SALES! They have to abide the by the rules made by others.....If there were no rules then the batboys would be making them hit harder.....You can bet on that!

Perhaps trying was the wrong word to use. I'm just thinking that, regardless if it was their idea, or ASA, or whoever, the bat manufacturers did make them to a standard dictated by the ASA or whoever. Wasn't that standard set by the sanctioning bodies to increase safety? Whether the manufacturer does it voluntarily or was forced to by a standard is irrelevant. They did it. They followed the rules. I don't doubt you one bit, that if there were no standards, we'd have some ridiculous bats on the market. But sueing for 6 digit money isn't doing anything for anyone, except maybe putting momma up in a good condo.

[DunninLA]

ATD -- I do not find Sam's post baffling or contradictory at all... let me explain.

Sam has come on here many times warning parents that overuse of pitchers at 12U, 14U can cause repetitive use injuries. Why does he do this? Because many parents and coaches believe (I think wrongly) that the windmill motion used in FP either makes repetitive use injury impossible, or at least a remote risk that shouldn't bother anyone. He wants parents/coaches to reconsider this risk to the pitchers under their influence and control.

Now, Sam is NOW ALSO saying that the increase in bat exit speeds caused by modern bats are can ALSO lead to injury that is not fully considered by parents. Same issue -- there is a risk not fully comprehended by parents/coaches. Especially parents of of F1, F5, F3, in that order.

I see Sam's warnings as being consistent, not contradictory or baffling. In both cases, he observes a risk that he considers underappreciated.

[DunninLA]

When I first heard of the proposed ASA regulation that a bat be 92 mph out of wrapper, I thought -- Oh brother... more regulation.. and .. hmmm, my smallish daughter will lose the advantage of that Demarini Phenix!! Self interest at its hightest!

Now, I've had some time to think about it. Baseball and softball developed in a time when wood bats were the only alternative. The pitcher's mount/circle was deemed over decades not to dangerous a place to be with the exit speed off wood. The length of the base paths were appropriate to position fielders so that the exit speed of balls off a wood bat (88 mph) were not deemed dangerous. But then technology allowed lighter bats, more exit speed, and huge sweet spots. The first two each contribute to an additional 10-15 mph off the bat, and the 3rd makes max velocity hits twice as common as with wood. Sure there are injuries with wood, but common sense tells you injuries with an 88 mph bat will be less than with a 98 - 100 bat or 100-108 shaved. It's not just exit speed, it is also that the max exit speed comes from a ball struck along 7-9" of barrel instead of 4-6" of barrel with wood.

Like I said earlier, I do think it would be a good thing for ASA, NCAA, USSAA, Little League, High School sports federations, and other sanctioning bodies to get together with the bat manufacturers to create a bat with wood performance but metal durability. Everyone will be in the same boat, and good hitter will hit, bad hitters will not, but everyone will be on an even playing field that is safer than the field now occupied.

[Demonboy]

My conclusion on this subject is..........
What a load of crap!!
Those parents suck..

Even I find that a bit harsh.

[Demonboy]

Uh.....every kid that plays baseball or softball makes the conscious decision to play the game KNOWING that they could be killed on any given play???? That's rich.

The jury found that the kid absolutely had no idea he could get killed.

Ask your DD if she knows that she could be killed playing softball. Let us know what she says.

The truth is that we expect the organizations to police the manufacturers to provide safe equipment. When it comes to bats, the hitters' parents have influenced the organizations to leave the bat performance levels at dangerous maximums in order to make up for their kids' lack of actual hitting ability. They will argue that the levels today are as safe as they can be....because they won't admit their kid sucks.

For someone who has come on here crying like a baby about overuse injury and lecturing, this stance and about face you have suddenly taken is quite baffling. If you are unsure or not comfortable or convinced that as a pitcher your child that you are responsible and sole decision maker for is remotely unsafe beyond your comfort level then have them play right field with a mask and helmet. Or better yet, have your pitcher where a MASK for starters, which the parents he also failed to make him do. Or just have them read books on the weekend instead. He couldve gotten hit on the temple with a $10 T-Ball bat and it could've been fatal. We all have kids that play sports every day and yes if my child got killed via an accident I would be very angry. Unless the bat was defective, altered, the risk of getting killed on the field is about the same as if we took a Sunday drive in CA or crashed on their bikes down the street. Statistically the same.

I didn't realize that trying to help (with no personal stake either way mind you) some over zealous, living through their daughter, know it all, it can't happen to me, perspective challenged parents was "crying".

[ATD]

ATD -- I do not find Sam's post baffling or contradictory at all... let me explain.

Sam has come on here many times warning parents that overuse of pitchers at 12U, 14U can cause repetitive use injuries. Why does he do this? Because many parents and coaches believe (I think wrongly) that the windmill motion used in FP either makes repetitive use injury impossible, or at least a remote risk that shouldn't bother anyone. He wants parents/coaches to reconsider this risk to the pitchers under their influence and control.

Now, Sam is NOW ALSO saying that the increase in bat exit speeds caused by modern bats are can ALSO lead to injury that is not fully considered by parents. Same issue -- there is a risk not fully comprehended by parents/coaches. Especially parents of of F1, F5, F3, in that order.

I see Sam's warnings as being consistent, not contradictory or baffling. In both cases, he observes a risk that he considers underappreciated.

It is baffling. You are conveniently leaving out half of Sam's argument about overuse. The other half and most important, and I agree with Sam on this, is to basically "take care of your kid" in a nutshell. If bats are too fast and too dangerous for your pitching child, get them off the mound and have them play another position or another sport. It is your responsibility as a parent at the end of the day to take care of your kid. A begging coach, league, organization, or bat company shouldn't do it for you. Failing to acknowledge or ignoring the risks or your lack of due diligence, ignorance, stupidity or otherwise is not an excuse. Either the risk is acceptable and you live with the risk and accept the consequences of your choices for your child or you do something about it.

An old chief of police once told me, the best way to not be a victim is to not put yourself in a situation to be a victim. You can guarantee you will never get mugged in a dark alley if you never walk down a dark alley. Since we're talking about life and death here and not simply winning or losing, don't walk down the dark alley if the risk is unacceptable, but having your head in the sand is never an excuse for sound informed judgement, there is too much at stake.

[GIMNEPIWO]

[quote="ATD"]For someone who has come on here crying like a baby about overuse injury and lecturing, this stance and about face you have suddenly taken is quite baffling. quote]

Ask Sam who had the biggest hand in his DD's overuse injuries ... he will be the first to tell you, as he did me, that his head was up his a*s ... "crying like a baby" ? I don't think so ... the voice of experience is more like it ... Will it happen to everyone? No ... Can it happen to anyone? You be the judge ...

Now, as for what Sam said :
"Uh.....every kid that plays baseball or softball makes the conscious decision to play the game KNOWING that they could be killed on any given play???? That's rich.

The jury found that the kid absolutely had no idea he could get killed.

Ask your DD if she knows that she could be killed playing softball. Let us know what she says.

The truth is that we expect the organizations to police the manufacturers to provide safe equipment. When it comes to bats, the hitters' parents have influenced the organizations to leave the bat performance levels at dangerous maximums in order to make up for their kids' lack of actual hitting ability. They will argue that the levels today are as safe as they can be....because they won't admit their kid sucks.

I personally believe that at an older age, kids should start to have an understanding of the inherent risks involved ... but many do not because their Parents controled their thinking and therefore ruined their decision making abilities ... at a younger age, say 12 and under, kids just want Dad or Mom to be proud of them and would run through hot coals if you gave them a little attention ... Do I think ANY kid on a ball field between peer pressure, coaches and parents would say " I'm not playing because the other team is using a hot bat" ? NO, I don't ... And what would most parents, coaches or kids say in this day and age ... " I gotta get one of those bats " ... This was certainly a terrible thing that happened ... Do I think I would sue under these circumstances ? ... I would like to think that I wouldn't ...

[DunninLA]

ATD --

The thread that draws both of Sam's arguments together is a common underestimation of the true risk. Both come from misconceptions. The pitching misconception is that the windmill is free of risk. The bat/fielder misconception comes from the fact that most parents never played with 98-108 exit speed bats, nor did they grow up with them. The bat exit speed problem relatively new ... about 94 mph with first generation aluminums, and then 98-100 with composites that arrived in around 2000.

In both cases, parents are understandably mis-informed about the true dangers their daughters face when taking the field.