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by coolstuff » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:46 am

Skarp wrote:There is no such dichotomy as “human rights” versus “property rights.” No human rights can exist without property rights. Since material goods are produced by the mind and effort of individual men, and are needed to sustain their lives, if the producer does not own the result of his effort, he does not own his life. To deny property rights means to turn men into property owned by the state. Whoever claims the “right” to “redistribute” the wealth produced by others is claiming the “right” to treat human beings as chattel.

--Ayn Rand


Never in a million years would I ever believe I would read an Ayn Rand quote on Heybucket. I read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead when I was in high school but I haven't picked up Rand since. Oh, and I used to be a fan of Rush. :D What Rand have you read?
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by Skarp » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:00 pm

coolstuff wrote:You know, the American people aren't as dumb as everyone thinks. We don't like it when one party controls the White House and Congress, or when one party throws its weight around in either arena. I predict that the Republicans will take control of Congress during Obama's presidency, Obama will be elected for one more term, then a Republican will be elected to the White House. Sometimes I think the whole thing is rigged to turn out that way....

The problem is entitlements, which persist regardless which party takes temporary control of the political system. Democrats are the party of entitlements. It has slowly but surely gotten worse over time, and now the hard left senses that it's in the endgame...because the double whammies of health care and climate change will place so much control of our lives in government hands, so much of the economy under government control, and make so many people permanently dependent on the government for the things that they cannot do without, that there will be no going back. It's like a politician trying to run against social security...it's a death sentence, because too many people depend upon it.

Whether the Republicans have adequately lived up to conservative principles (they haven't) is entirely beside the point. Contrary to popular opinion, the Republican party is not a conservative party. It is merely the necessary home of conservatives, who try to hold the line against their more liberal colleagues (like Bush) and the Democrats. I argue on behalf of conservatism, not on behalf of the Republican party.

The European social democracies are plagued with debt, endemic social problems, stagnant economies, and growing irrelevance. These are the same countries that used to rule the world. At one time the sun never set on the British empire...now it's just a small island nation with ever growing social and economic problems, cannibalizing on the remnants of its past prosperity and riding on the wake of American success. Whose wake will it ride on when the U.S. finally and fully adopts the same failed model that England did? Same goes for France and Germany.

You're right that there is a conservative ascendancy taking place in this country...one that might even boot Obama from office after just one term. The issue is what this president, and his socialist cronies, are able to irreversibly ram down our throats in the interim.
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by Skarp » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:08 pm

coolstuff wrote:
Skarp wrote:There is no such dichotomy as “human rights” versus “property rights.” No human rights can exist without property rights. Since material goods are produced by the mind and effort of individual men, and are needed to sustain their lives, if the producer does not own the result of his effort, he does not own his life. To deny property rights means to turn men into property owned by the state. Whoever claims the “right” to “redistribute” the wealth produced by others is claiming the “right” to treat human beings as chattel.

--Ayn Rand


Never in a million years would I ever believe I would read an Ayn Rand quote on Heybucket. I read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead when I was in high school but I haven't picked up Rand since. Oh, and I used to be a fan of Rush. :D What Rand have you read?

I likewise read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead many years ago (when I was a liberal, lol). I collect books on philosophy, among other subjects, and own one entitled "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand"...written by Leonard Peikoff, probably the foremost authority on her work and thought.

Robert Nozick also presents a number of her ideas in "Anarchy, State and Utopia"...an excellent book.
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by coolstuff » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:07 am

Skarp wrote:You're right that there is a conservative ascendancy taking place in this country...one that might even boot Obama from office after just one term. The issue is what this president, and his socialist cronies, are able to irreversibly ram down our throats in the interim.


What I really was trying to say is "what goes around comes around." There is a conservative ascendancy because the conservatives are not in power, just as there was a liberal ascendancy that put Obama in the White House in the first place. An enemy does wonders to bring people together.

BTW - I voted for Bush twice, and I voted for Obama. I'm all for healthcare reform, even the public insurance option, because I hate private health insurance companies with a passion, and I also have a passion for the poor. Private health insurance all deserve to go out of business. I think that any negative effects of the climate legislation are overblown, and I base that on what I read in Business Week. I hate Fox News, CNN and MSNBC because there really is no such thing as cable "news." So I read the AP and Reuters newswires, the only place to find real news, and I mean *real* news, like what's happened, not people's opinions about what happened. I don't call myself an liberal or a conservative. I'm ideologically homeless.
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by Sabertooth » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:23 am

So do you really think that our Government, in it's present state can successfully run a Government "Public" Option? If so, PLEASE tell me what they have succssfully managed as of late. Just asking, because it's a BIG hang up for me.
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by GIMNEPIWO » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:02 am

Sabertooth wrote:So do you really think that our Government, in it's present state can successfully run a Government "Public" Option? If so, PLEASE tell me what they have succssfully managed as of late. Just asking, because it's a BIG hang up for me.


I don't know ... they always manage to f*ck things up pretty good ... LMAO ... but, that isn't anything new ... :mrgreen:
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by outfielder » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:02 am

coolstuff wrote:
Skarp wrote:You're right that there is a conservative ascendancy taking place in this country...one that might even boot Obama from office after just one term. The issue is what this president, and his socialist cronies, are able to irreversibly ram down our throats in the interim.


What I really was trying to say is "what goes around comes around." There is a conservative ascendancy because the conservatives are not in power, just as there was a liberal ascendancy that put Obama in the White House in the first place. An enemy does wonders to bring people together.

BTW - I voted for Bush twice, and I voted for Obama. I'm all for healthcare reform, even the public insurance option, because I hate private health insurance companies with a passion, and I also have a passion for the poor. Private health insurance all deserve to go out of business. I think that any negative effects of the climate legislation are overblown, and I base that on what I read in Business Week. I hate Fox News, CNN and MSNBC because there really is no such thing as cable "news." So I read the AP and Reuters newswires, the only place to find real news, and I mean *real* news, like what's happened, not people's opinions about what happened. I don't call myself an liberal or a conservative. I'm ideologically homeless.


That makes zero sense to me...are you saying you voted for Bush both times, then did a 180 and voted for Obama and you want health care "reform" and you are for climate legislation!

You didn't vote for Bush both times...or you are a very confused individual. Then again, most liberals...oh I mean "progressives" are confused.
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by Skarp » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:21 am

Sabertooth wrote:So do you really think that our Government, in it's present state can successfully run a Government "Public" Option? If so, PLEASE tell me what they have succssfully managed as of late. Just asking, because it's a BIG hang up for me.

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/2009/10/ ... /#more-660

The government can't run small, insular programs with any degree of effectiveness. The idea that it can manage the economy, or any sizeable portion thereof, is ludicrous--and a proven failure (with abysmal consequences) wherever it has been tried.
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by Skarp » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:44 am

coolstuff wrote:
Skarp wrote:You're right that there is a conservative ascendancy taking place in this country...one that might even boot Obama from office after just one term. The issue is what this president, and his socialist cronies, are able to irreversibly ram down our throats in the interim.


What I really was trying to say is "what goes around comes around." There is a conservative ascendancy because the conservatives are not in power, just as there was a liberal ascendancy that put Obama in the White House in the first place. An enemy does wonders to bring people together.

BTW - I voted for Bush twice, and I voted for Obama. I'm all for healthcare reform, even the public insurance option, because I hate private health insurance companies with a passion, and I also have a passion for the poor. Private health insurance all deserve to go out of business. I think that any negative effects of the climate legislation are overblown, and I base that on what I read in Business Week. I hate Fox News, CNN and MSNBC because there really is no such thing as cable "news." So I read the AP and Reuters newswires, the only place to find real news, and I mean *real* news, like what's happened, not people's opinions about what happened. I don't call myself an liberal or a conservative. I'm ideologically homeless.

Well it's coming around faster than at just about any time in history. Obama's approval ratings are plummeting, and the approval ratings for his policies are in the toilet. Considering his quite recent broad popularity, a rallying of the faithful can only partially explain the conservative shift. No, many people in the middle are finally realizing that his views don't resemble theirs in the slightest, and they are getting scared.

If you are truly passionate about the poor you can't possibly support the Democratic party, which has institutionalized inter-generational poverty via the programs it has enacted, and which does nothing but patronize and divide people based on class and race. Helping the poor is about job creation, and the Democrats kill jobs. They always have. Democratic leaders like nothing more than to have huge segments of the population dependent upon them for their sustenance.
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by coolstuff » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:23 am

Skarp wrote:If you are truly passionate about the poor you can't possibly support the Democratic party, which has institutionalized inter-generational poverty via the programs it has enacted, and which does nothing but patronize and divide people based on class and race. Helping the poor is about job creation, and the Democrats kill jobs. They always have. Democratic leaders like nothing more than to have huge segments of the population dependent upon them for their sustenance.


Like I said, I don't support any political party. I assume by your comments that you feel the Republicans do none of these things, which I highly doubt. A politician by any other name is still a skunk.
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