Tagging the runner considered an appeal

[SnocatzDad]

I've run into this a few times and I am not clear on the ruling.

R1 on 2B deep fly to Center, R1 leaves early throw goes to 3B she slides in ahead of the tag but is tagged. Umpire calls safe on play at 3B, fielders throw the ball to 2B umpire calls runner out for leaving early.

Isn't the act of tagging the runner who left early considered a live ball appeal? Why would the ball have to be returned to 2B? Even if the defense doesn't know that it is making a live ball appeal, if the umpire knows the player left early, doesn't tagging the runner who left early at the next base the same as tagging her if she were running back to 2B to tag up?

[Comp]

The umpires job is not to give the defensive team outs. If the defense didnt see the runner leave early, it is not his job to tell them she did, in fact, he is not to tell either team anything they may not know. The runner that left early beat the throw and tag at 3rd base and the umpire made the correct call of safe. If the defense had not seen the runner leave early, had not made the appeal and another pitch had been thrown, that runner would be completely legal.

A live ball appeal is generally throwing to a base ahead of a runner trying to return. In the situation you have posted, the defense was not making it obvious they were making a live ball appeal and were in fact making a play on a runner advancing to 3rd base.

[Jalamander]

Even if the defense doesn't know that it is making a live ball appeal, if the umpire knows the player left early, doesn't tagging the runner who left early at the next base the same as tagging her if she were running back to 2B to tag up?

"An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in hand, would not constitute an appeal."
Or, in your case, a tag of a player at 3rd base doesn't clearly indicate the fielder is making an appeal that the runner left early. However, if the fielder applying the tag at 3rd base looked at the ump and said something like, "She left early.", Guess what. Even though the runner may be standing on 3rd, the appeal was proper and the runner would be called out.

Why would the ball have to be returned to 2B?

You can make the appeal at 2nd base, or you can make the appeal by tagging the runner. On an appeal, a base is not a safe haven. The runner can be tagged while on base and be ruled "Out!"

Jalamander

[SnocatzDad]

Thanks for the explanation guys. I get it now.

I just find it interesting that we've taken judgement of "intent" out of many rulings (i.e. Batter in box "intentionally" interferes with catcher's throw to 3rd, is now Batter in box "actively" interferes with throw to 3rd.

Yet in this case the umpire is judging the intent of whether it's an appeal or simply a tag that is not an appeal. The act is undeniable the intent is questionable. Do they have to verbalize it before the tag? If they verbalize after the tag and the girl is running back do they have to tag her again?

How do you go from

ASA Rule Supplement 1. Appeals B. Live. In all games an appeal may be made during live ball by any fielder in possesion of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if they are still on the playing field.

To "it has to be clear that it is an appeal" ?

I don't see anything about having to say "appeal" while tagging the runner. Are there supplements to the supplements that umpires have access to that coaches don't?

[Jalamander]

Look at the definition of an appeal. (the bold is my emphasis)
ASA - Appeal Play: A play on a rule violation on which an umpire my not make a decision until requested by a manager, coach or player.
NFHS - Appeal: A play or rule violation on which the umpire does not make a ruling until requested by a coach or player.
LL - An appeal is an act of a fielder in claiming a violation of the rules by the offensive team.

I have to fall back on my earlier statement, "the act unmistakably indicates an appeal" or "clearly intended as an appeal". That verbage came from the LL rule book.

Does it have to be verbal? No.
A caught fly ball and the throw back to the base which the runner left early. No one says anything, but everyone knows...that's unmistakable.
A caught fly ball and the throw back to the base which the runner left early, but the fielder is trying to tag a runner sliding in to that same base...that's not unmistakable. There still has to be an appeal. Say something or do something that tells me you know the runner left early and you are making an appeal. Right after the slide and after the safe call if you want to point to the runner on 3rd and then point down to the base you are standing on...fine. I now know you unmistakably have indicated an appeal.

A little off the subject, but, another situation (I had this in an LL SB game a number of years ago), R1 and R2. Batter hits one to the fence. As R1 and R2 round 3rd they both miss the base,. When F6 gets the ball she runs over to 3rd, looks up at me and said "She missed the base." I ask you. Is this an unmistakable appeal? Well, no. It's not. I have two violations. Which runner should I call out? I need more information. So I ask F6, "Who missed?" She points to the runner stepping into the dugout. Now, I know F6 knows that a base was missed and she pointed to a specific runner. I now have an unmistakable appeal. I got an out. If she were to have said, 'Well, acutally, both of them missed." Would that statement work for two outs?

Jalamander