The USA needs a leader like this!

[Skarp]

And I agree to some degree that if you don't like it here, go back where you came from ... but because we pride ourselves on being a 'melting pot' and allowing religious freedom ... that means EVERY religion, not just yours or mine ... as long as they are within the framework of our laws ... do you have to like them or their religion, absolutely not ... and in many cases, the longer you look the more similarities you will see if your eyes and mind are open ... but guess what ... If YOU think it is better in Australia, you too are free to go ...

For a nation to be a nation there MUST be a single, relatively cohesive culture in which everyone partakes to some reasonable extent. The extreme tolerance model advocated by the multiculturalist left has led to ever-increasing balkanization within this country (and all other Western liberal democracies). Rudd is taking a stand against that phenomenon.

Robert Bork once observed that it may be in the nature of free societies to eventually kill themselves via the very freedoms that they allow, and, ironically, via the success that they enjoy. Citizens of these countries have it so easy that they lose sight of the real dangers in the world, the reality of scarcity, and of the need to actually be productive and tolerant of hardship. We think nobody is ever supposed to suffer. We think that every problem is perfectly solvable. They are not.

If we tolerate the invasion of a multitude of foreign cultures, without requiring the immigrants of those cultures to integrate into our own, we are doomed as a nation (read Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire). We currently have 40+ million first-generation immigrants in this country. No country in the history of the world has ever survived that type of onslaught. Huge numbers of "Americans" now no longer even need to learn our language or partake at all in the broader culture to survive here. That is a very bad thing.

My ancestors came here whenever, with or without a bible...these facts are entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that they chose to integrate into the existing American culture (which itself is obviously an ever-evolving thing)--and wouldn't have gotten far without doing so. Now we bend over backwards to make sure that integration is not necessary--and in doing so sow the seeds of our own destruction.

[DonnieS]

Joe is short for 'cracker'. You know...like in 'honkey'...

Well, we have something in common. I read somewhere that Donnie is Czech for 'redneck'.

Skarp, dead on. I dont care where the people are from, its what they do when they get here. You come to this country, love your roots, but love and support this country and what it stands for. I have czech, german, swedish, mexican, in my family, we even have Yankee, but we try to keep that quiet. Hopefully that will wash out in a few generations.

[Joe]

Joe, you kill me. Let's move the U.S. capital to anywhere in Texas, except brownsville and the like.

Brownsville would be perfect...plenty of visiting 'muchachos' to run the weedeaters on the White House lawn.

I'll just make the assumtion, for the sake of argument and out of Sunday evening duldrums ... That Joe is not short for Chief Joe Running Bear ... or Jose Garcia Romero Sanchez Sanchez ... that being the case, IF my assumptions are correct ... that would then mean that at some point, perhaps a few years or a few hundred years ago your ancestors emigrated to this wonderful country that we call the U S of A ( and I would guess they brought their Bible with them ) ... for this is what my Grandfather did on my Fathers side and Great Great Grandfather did on my mothers side ... On my mothers side it was when things got bad in Ireland and this Country needed people that would do the grunt work ... and my Fathers side from Poland at the turn of the century for the same reasons ... now we are faced, even in this rough economy with Americans who don't want to do the grunt work so we turn to Mexico, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic or any other place where there is a sour economy and cheap labor ... at some time in the future as the economy in those places improves we will be importing labor from somewhere else ... and they, like many of the Mexican community we are importing to mow your lawn, wash your car and clean your house will send their money back to their families so they can eat and cloth themselves and perhaps someday move to the USA ... and then the cycle goes on because we are a " melting pot " ... If you don't like the fact that the local Citgo station is run by someone from India or Turkey , why didn't you buy it ? ... They bought it or leased it because it was there and you didn't want it ... If you don't like how they do business, don't patronize them ... this is the USA and you have a choice ...

"..and how could we forget those brave veterans Murtha, Kerry"

Yeah, like 'Dubya' ... gimme a break ...

And I agree to some degree that if you don't like it here, go back where you came from ... but because we pride ourselves on being a 'melting pot' and allowing religious freedom ... that means EVERY religion, not just yours or mine ... as long as they are within the framework of our laws ... do you have to like them or their religion, absolutely not ... and in many cases, the longer you look the more similarities you will see if your eyes and mind are open ... but guess what ... If YOU think it is better in Australia, you too are free to go ...

Joe is short for 'cracker'. You know...like in 'honkey'...

You know what, I really regret posting these comments and freely admit that they crossed the line. I am not a racist and consider myself very tolerant. Kerry and Murtha served our country with distinction and while I don't agree with their politics, Reid, Polosi and Kennedy... I'm sure are tying to do what's right for our country.

I also want to apologize to Barney Frank and the all the other poop-shooters out there who may have been offended.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Skarp speak:
"If we tolerate the invasion of a multitude of foreign cultures, without requiring the immigrants of those cultures to integrate into our own, we are doomed as a nation (read Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire). We currently have in this country. No country in the history of the world has ever survived that type of onslaught. Huge numbers of "Americans" now no longer even need to learn our language or partake at all in the broader culture to survive here. That is a very bad thing."

Absolutely ... my ancestors, like yours had to learn the ways and language of this country ... and the reason we have to press one for English ( at least it isn't press 2 for English yet ) is because of the influx of ... "40+ million first-generation immigrants" ... (wow, thats a lot isn't it ? ) ... when you have such a large number from one culture arriving on these shores so quickly ... that is when they begin to have a voice that stretches outside the community in which they live ... In my Grandparents case, they lived in a small Polish neighborhood in Greenpoint Brooklyn, New York ... where they had they're groceries and customs from home ... but, there were not 40 million of them at one time ... so, why is the USA allowing such an influx ? ... is it because that is what the people demand ? I'll ask again, who mows YOU'RE or your neighbors lawn, cleans the house, flips the burgers down the street ... I ate a Chinese restaurant in Florida 2 weeks ago and didn't see one Chinese person in the place ... couple years ago when my company was hiring for a grunt job, we hired 17 'Americans' before one showed up for the second day of work ( many never finished the first day and some didn't make it an hour ) ... we give a dollar hour raise after the first five days back to back, then another at 30 days and another at 90 days ... that 17th 'American' worked here 4 months and never put 5 days in back to back for his 1st raise ... So, is our Country destroying itself ? ... Probably so ... But WHO is going to do the grunt work ? You're DD ? Mine ? ...( Well, mine did because they had too ... We decided to stop hiring and DD's became the employees ) ... the point is, we complain about the '40 million', having to press 1 for English and the Koran being moved to the top shelf ... I complain about the Days Inn's all being run by Peeps from India, but thats where we book our travel rooms because the teams money goes farther ... Yes, we would stay there if it was run by 'Americans' but it isn't ... So I am the problem, you are the problem ... yes even people whose ancestors came from Crackertoa and Honkeylvania are the problem ... the people who aren't a problem are those who are just trying to make a better life for themselves and their family, because that is America ...

[Skarp]

Skarp speak:
"If we tolerate the invasion of a multitude of foreign cultures, without requiring the immigrants of those cultures to integrate into our own, we are doomed as a nation (read Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire). We currently have in this country. No country in the history of the world has ever survived that type of onslaught. Huge numbers of "Americans" now no longer even need to learn our language or partake at all in the broader culture to survive here. That is a very bad thing."

Absolutely ... my ancestors, like yours had to learn the ways and language of this country ... and the reason we have to press one for English ( at least it isn't press 2 for English yet ) is because of the influx of ... "40+ million first-generation immigrants" ... (wow, thats a lot isn't it ? ) ... when you have such a large number from one culture arriving on these shores so quickly ... that is when they begin to have a voice that stretches outside the community in which they live ... In my Grandparents case, they lived in a small Polish neighborhood in Greenpoint Brooklyn, New York ... where they had they're groceries and customs from home ... but, there were not 40 million of them at one time ... so, why is the USA allowing such an influx ? ... is it because that is what the people demand ? I'll ask again, who mows YOU'RE or your neighbors lawn, cleans the house, flips the burgers down the street ... I ate a Chinese restaurant in Florida 2 weeks ago and didn't see one Chinese person in the place ... couple years ago when my company was hiring for a grunt job, we hired 17 'Americans' before one showed up for the second day of work ( many never finished the first day and some didn't make it an hour ) ... we give a dollar hour raise after the first five days back to back, then another at 30 days and another at 90 days ... that 17th 'American' worked here 4 months and never put 5 days in back to back for his 1st raise ... So, is our Country destroying itself ? ... Probably so ... But WHO is going to do the grunt work ? You're DD ? Mine ? ...( Well, mine did because they had too ... We decided to stop hiring and DD's became the employees ) ... the point is, we complain about the '40 million', having to press 1 for English and the Koran being moved to the top shelf ... I complain about the Days Inn's all being run by Peeps from India, but thats where we book our travel rooms because the teams money goes farther ... Yes, we would stay there if it was run by 'Americans' but it isn't ... So I am the problem, you are the problem ... yes even people whose ancestors came from Crackertoa and Honkeylvania are the problem ... the people who aren't a problem are those who are just trying to make a better life for themselves and their family, because that is America ...

I have nothing against immigrants trying to make a better life for themselves, and working hard to achieve it. I admire that greatly, and wish Americans still possessed such gumption and character. We don't. But when those immigrants think that they shouldn't have to integrate, and that our culture should adapt to them rather than the other way around, my admiration comes to a screeching halt. And even though such people are admirable, that doesn't mean that this country doesn't have a right, and the obligation, to protect its own culture and character by restricting their access.

Ask any average person (i.e., non-moonbat lib) if he/she likes what is happening to this country with respect to immigration and culture, and they will say no. But they certainly aren't going to pay an American $15 per hour to mow their lawn when an illegal will do it for $2.50. Why would they? It's not like their unilateral non-participation will solve the problem--so they would incur all of the price and receive none of the benefit. It's a classic collective action problem. It is clearly in the collective's interest to solve the problem, but the rational choice for each individual is contrary to that interest. And of course the reason it's in everybody's self interest to contribute to the problem is that most of the costs of immigrant labor and large immigrant populations are externalized onto others (health care, education, crime, etc.).

So the problem must be solved at the collective level...i.e., by government. The illegals should go, and we should stop allowing legal immigration from over-represented cultures for the time being. If this is a melting pot, no lump should be so big that it won't melt.

As far as the economics of the situation go--i.e., our "demand" for cheap labor and services--perhaps that demand should simply go unsatiated. At $15 per hour, lots of people would probably elect to mow their own lawns. So be it. And some goods might not be produced at all without cheap immigrant labor, because the extra cost wouldn't be borne by the end-consumers. So be that as well. Because the real cost of "cheap" labor in this country is clearly way too high.

[jofus]

Eh, with one kid playing on 2 softball teams (league and travel), and one kid playing baseball and soccer, not to mention a 2 year old, I still find time to mow my own yard. It's only a little over an acre, but still....

[GIMNEPIWO]

Skarpmeister ... we are on zackly the same page but you may not know it ... and in NO way am I condoning " illegals " ... Which in my opinion, although the majority are here to better their families and not steal your car, need to go ... In the recent past, some of our politicians who have spoken out against 'illegals' have been found to have them vacuuming their floors ... most 'illegals' don't pay taxes, but some do ... Once someone is 'legal' here they are bound by the same tax laws as you or I ... and as you point out " large immigrant populations are externalized onto others (health care, education, crime, etc.)." ... I'm just saying that people want to complain about it, but don't REALLY want anything done about it ... If they did, they would be willing to sacrifice their Saturday AM mowing their own grass ... even better, hire the neighbor kid to do it ... but, our youth ... aahhhhh ...... have we taught them the " gumption and character " of which you speak ... or have we taught them to hire cheap, buy cheap and that sort of work is below you ... complain there is no one to do that work, then when immigrants step up willing to do it, we complain ...? I too think its out of hand and the immigration should be restricted ... but once they are here 'legally' ... the water is already over the dam ... If they want the Koran moved to the top shelf and that upsets the apple cart, I say "too bad it stays put" ... If because there is a large Mexican population here they have moved my Beer from isle 5 to isle 6 to make room for the Taco's ... I can adapt ...

[softballmafia]

From the L. A. Times
1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working w ithout a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegl alien Mexicans &nb sp;on Medi-Cal , whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in ga rages.< /SPAN>
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County. )

(All 10 of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue


This is only one State.................

If this doesn't open your eyes nothing will !

And you wonder why Nancy Pelosi wants them to become voters!

[ocdad]

And I agree to some degree that if you don't like it here, go back where you came from ... but because we pride ourselves on being a 'melting pot' and allowing religious freedom ... that means EVERY religion, not just yours or mine ... as long as they are within the framework of our laws ... do you have to like them or their religion, absolutely not ... and in many cases, the longer you look the more similarities you will see if your eyes and mind are open ... but guess what ... If YOU think it is better in Australia, you too are free to go ...

For a nation to be a nation there MUST be a single, relatively cohesive culture in which everyone partakes to some reasonable extent. The extreme tolerance model advocated by the multiculturalist left has led to ever-increasing balkanization within this country (and all other Western liberal democracies). Rudd is taking a stand against that phenomenon.

Robert Bork once observed that it may be in the nature of free societies to eventually kill themselves via the very freedoms that they allow, and, ironically, via the success that they enjoy. Citizens of these countries have it so easy that they lose sight of the real dangers in the world, the reality of scarcity, and of the need to actually be productive and tolerant of hardship. We think nobody is ever supposed to suffer. We think that every problem is perfectly solvable. They are not.

If we tolerate the invasion of a multitude of foreign cultures, without requiring the immigrants of those cultures to integrate into our own, we are doomed as a nation (read Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire). We currently have 40+ million first-generation immigrants in this country. No country in the history of the world has ever survived that type of onslaught. Huge numbers of "Americans" now no longer even need to learn our language or partake at all in the broader culture to survive here. That is a very bad thing.

My ancestors came here whenever, with or without a bible...these facts are entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that they chose to integrate into the existing American culture (which itself is obviously an ever-evolving thing)--and wouldn't have gotten far without doing so. Now we bend over backwards to make sure that integration is not necessary--and in doing so sow the seeds of our own destruction.

I have to chime in a bit on this. Skarp like always you are spot on about a lot of things, but usually through your conservative goggles, which is fine, but when you start stating 40+ million 1st generation might be comparable to the downfall to the Roman Empire, I will put my moderate - left leaning goggles on to give this topic a more balanced view. 40+million is a little more than 10% of the US population. The Romans were a conquering empire, they usually conquered empires that had populations many times over the size of the original Roman Population, so please do not compare the two.

Your point is understood about, "but because we pride ourselves on being a 'melting pot' and allowing religious freedom ... that means EVERY religion, not just yours or mine ... as long as they are within the framework of our laws ..."......
they chose to integrate into the existing American culture (which itself is obviously an ever-evolving thing)--and wouldn't have gotten far without doing so. Now we bend over backwards to make sure that integration is not necessary--and in doing so sow the seeds of our own destruction I am reading a little into this so if I am off base nothing personal against you, but I would just like to say that if anyone thinks that the waves of immigrants: Irish, Italian, Polish, etc integrated while, current immigrants don't: Mexican, Haitian, Puerto Rican, etc. is way off base, you still see those same early immigrant communities celebrating their heritage as the more recent ones do and actually probably more, the only difference the majority of Americans now tolerate it, but they didn't back when they 1st came, which is what you have now. We celebrate St. Patrick's Day (day to get drunk off green beer), if any "True" American from that time when they first arrived would have known this they would be rolling over in their graves, saying how un-American they need to go back to their damn island and not bring this great society down...

Each wave of immigrants has brought something to the American society that we all just take for granted as Americans now after the fact, each new generation eventually accepts the 2nd or 3rd generations culture and customs that become Americanized, but it is usually their parents & grand-parents that can't believe what the new generation is allowing in this great country of THEIRS (like theirs was not as equally hated, I don't care who you are, because if you a direct descendant of the colonist, yours was hated also, I know the residing American-Indians didn't like it).

My kids don't notice race when they are at school, they don't say my Black, Mexican, White, or Chinese friend they only say my friend from school, I know it wasn't like that in my day. So get off this doomsday theory that America is being invaded & is on the brink of collapse because of all these foreigners, because they have been saying that for over 200 years now & they have all been wrong, because America is a melting pot & we usually take the best qualities and make them our own and that is why we continue to be the leading power of the free world, not because we are a White-Christian society.

I will clarify one thing though, which I believe GIMNE is trying to say also, yes we agree that you don’t let a group of individuals come in and destroy this society from within because we are just so tolerant of everyone’s beliefs and customs, but you don’t hate a group because of it either. Not all Muslims are fanatics, now if you were to target a faction of the Muslim population whose sole belief is there is only their belief and nothing else, which I think is what you are trying to say in part of your argument Skarp, I believe almost everyone is in agreement with you.

I believe I won a free drink from you in another post, so does that mean we can drink & talk politics. I couldn’t resist, I just haven’t had to time to reply to that one yet.

[GIMNEPIWO]

illegal immigrants illegal aliens. illegal aliens. illegl alien illegally illegal aliens likely illegal aliens illegal. illegal aliens illegal aliens.
We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue
This is only one State.................
If this doesn't open your eyes nothing will !
And you wonder why Nancy Pelosi wants them to become voters!

Perhaps I'm wrong, but are you confusing 'Illegal' with 'Immigrant' or 'migrant worker', or are they the same thing west of the Mississippi ? From the sound of things, you have MANY more 'illegals' on the West Coast ... here on the East Coast, the INS seems to be doing a fairly good job ... but I'm sure many 'illegals' still get through ... We have farmed here for years and I have many Farmer friends ... and I can tell you first hand that they do their best to make sure everything is on the up & up ... it's hard enough to make a living farming without getting fined by the INS ... and so there probably are fewer than 2% of our crops being picked by 'illegals' ... because 98% of it is picked by legal resident immigrants or seasonal migrant workers ... have a salad !