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What olympic sports should go before softball?

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by MTR » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:59 pm

Skarp wrote:
MTR wrote:How about anything in which they let a professional making more than a standard living (including endorsements) off their sport participate?

I hear you, but the unavoidable problem is that the socialists cheat. How can true amateurs compete with athletes who are handpicked in preschool and trained 10 hours a day, all on the state dime?


You mean just like the USA athletes on the USOC money? Okay, you want an adjustment, allow the endorsement monies.

The Olympics are highly political, and in the "old school" days the socialists pointed to the results as evidence of the superiority of their system. But of course they were using professional athletes and we weren't. So I'm for demonstrating the superiority of our system. A free market produces better results in everything, including athletics.


Superiority in what, running? BFD. We are talking about games and competition, playground and high school stuff to most people. Other than for endorsements, once it's over, it's over. If you really want to make this a "country" competition, which the IOC does not really recognize as far as medal counts, stop allowing many of the competitors from training in the US and participating elsewhere. Stop competitors from "selling" their services to whatever country is willing to finance them.

Nonetheless, there should be some type of change, but it will never happen.
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by Skarp » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:33 pm

MTR wrote:Superiority in what, running? BFD. We are talking about games and competition, playground and high school stuff to most people. Other than for endorsements, once it's over, it's over. If you really want to make this a "country" competition, which the IOC does not really recognize as far as medal counts, stop allowing many of the competitors from training in the US and participating elsewhere. Stop competitors from "selling" their services to whatever country is willing to finance them.

I'm not saying I want to make it anything. It is what it is, and that we should conduct ourselves accordingly. And it manifestly IS a country competition. To assert otherwise is absurd. So why would we field college kids against athletes who are paid to train full time from the time they are old enough to walk, who don't have to go to school, or work, etc.? Makes no sense.

And "BFD" to the uneducated perhaps, but the fact of the matter is that the entire past century was consumed by an ideological struggle between two political/economic systems, one of which--communism/socialism--consistently used results in athletics and other competitive arenas (like chess, for instance) to tout its superiority and justifiability. Meanwhile it systematically murdered some 100 million persons (not counting wars). Many people bought into that alleged superiority. Many still do.

So I'm not overly concerned about lopsided basketball scores.
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by Martin » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:46 am

If you don't think many countries view this as a country competition and that the host country believes this Olympiad is a critical opportunity to influence world opinion, you haven't been paying attention.
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by Skarp » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:25 am

Martin wrote:If you don't think many countries view this as a country competition and that the host country believes this Olympiad is a critical opportunity to influence world opinion, you haven't been paying attention.

Exactly. Can you imagine the U.S. government altering birth certificates so that ineligible athletes can compete, or warning coaches not to allow their athletes to suffer any injuries while training? This is serious political business to China...and the Soviets were even worse.
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by Martin » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:02 am

Or pouring $300 million into an Opening Ceremony that featured faked fireworks for the TV audience and a lip-synching girl because a Politburo member deemed the actual singer to be too homely. As the director put it, it was "in the national interest" to make the switch. They are also putting "volunteers" into seats to ensure all the venues give the appearance of being sold out. During the marathon, I noticed Chinese flags flying about every half mile. The announcer noticed too and said, "Look at how proud the Chinese people are to be hosting these games!" Right. They all spontaneously bought the exact same sized flags and flew them at regular intervals. Very patriotic.

For more on why China wanted to host these games, see:

http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2008/08/sports-nationalism-and-global-politics-why-china-wanted-the-olympics/

And lets not just focus on China. There has been a running stream of smack talk between the Australian and British swim teams. The latest comment I read from the Aussie coach concerned Britain having "too many pubs and not enough pools" to field a quality team. Ouch!
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by MTR » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:23 am

Martin wrote:Or pouring $300 million into an Opening Ceremony that featured faked fireworks for the TV audience and a lip-synching girl because a Politburo member deemed the actual singer to be too homely. As the director put it, it was "in the national interest" to make the switch. They are also putting "volunteers" into seats to ensure all the venues give the appearance of being sold out. During the marathon, I noticed Chinese flags flying about every half mile. The announcer noticed too and said, "Look at how proud the Chinese people are to be hosting these games!" Right. They all spontaneously bought the exact same sized flags and flew them at regular intervals. Very patriotic.

And lets not just focus on China. There has been a running stream of smack talk between the Australian and British swim teams. The latest comment I read from the Aussie coach concerned Britain having "too many pubs and not enough pools" to field a quality team. Ouch!


WHO CARES? It is a media event. Hosting these games only proves China is attempting to buy credibility and respect as a global entity. They have admitted that. However, you buy into this media crap (see highlighted above) and become part of the problem.

Is winning a gold medal going to make our lives better or more prosperous? Is it going to demand more respect for the winning countries flag around the world? Are tourists from the winning countries get free passes to attractions on foreign soil? Is it going to insure peace and the end to political strife?

Other than national pride, which should not rely upon the athletic skills and medal counts of others, and a load of overbearing commercials for sponsoring product lines, what else do these games produce? Yeah, dreams of youngsters going that far in their athletic achievements, but we are discussing the real world, not some cornfield in Iowa where until 11 months ago, the shared owners could not even get along for the benefit of the sport and dreams of the kids. Even the Field of Dreams is a completely, for-profit venture. So much for dreams.

Is it nice to have the Olympics? Yeah, but it would be nicer if all actually believed and participated in the actual purpose of the games.

JMHO
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by Martin » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:41 am

Did you read the article I posted, MTR? Most of the answers to your questions are there. If you disagree with China's strategy, a more detailed post would be helpful.

You made an assertion that the games are strictly about athletic competition. Skarp and I said it most definitely is about A LOT more than that. I have provided an article that outlines how hosting the Olympics is a major aspect of Chinese foreign policy which backs our claims. We have provided several examples of how the games are much, much bigger than a simple athletic competition.

I understand and agree that the Olympic ideal is a great concept. I also am willing to concede that many folks such as yourself do not read anything more into the games than that. However, the vast majority of people cannot help but be influenced by the bombardment of imagery and commentary that comes out of Beijing, and that is PRECISELY why the Chinese have worked for decades on developing their Olympic program and hosting these games.
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by MTR » Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:55 am

Martin wrote:Did you read the article I posted, MTR? Most of the answers to your questions are there. If you disagree with China's strategy, a more detailed post would be helpful.


Did you read my post? I DON'T CARE WHAT CHINA'S OR ANYONE ELSE'S STRATEGY WAS, IS OR WILL EVER BE!

You made an assertion that the games are strictly about athletic competition. Skarp and I said it most definitely is about A LOT more than that. I have provided an article that outlines how hosting the Olympics is a major aspect of Chinese foreign policy which backs our claims. We have provided several examples of how the games are much, much bigger than a simple athletic competition.


Again, I DON'T CARE! It is supposed to be athletic competition . What other people make of it is solely up to what some people will buy into. Doesn't make it right and is not part of the Olympic mission. From the Olympic Charter:

Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the qualities of
body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism seeks to create a
way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good example and respect for
universal fundamental ethical principles.

The goal of Olympism is to place sport at the service of the harmonious development of man,
with a view to promoting a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity.

The Olympic Movement is the concerted, organised, universal and permanent action, carried
out under the supreme authority of the IOC, of all individuals and entities who are inspired by
the values of Olympism. It covers the five continents. It reaches its peak with the bringing
together of the world’s athletes at the great sports festival, the Olympic Games. Its symbol is
five interlaced rings.

The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practising
sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual
understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play. The organisation, administration
and management of sport must be controlled by independent sports organisations.

Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion,
politics, gender or otherwise is incompatible with belonging to the Olympic Movement.


I understand and agree that the Olympic ideal is a great concept. I also am willing to concede that many folks such as yourself do not read anything more into the games than that. However, the vast majority of people cannot help but be influenced by the bombardment of imagery and commentary that comes out of Beijing, and that is PRECISELY why the Chinese have worked for decades on developing their Olympic program and hosting these games.


So what does that tell you about the "vast majority" of people and where the problem lies? The world, not excluding the US, is inhabited by many fools. As you note, the Chinese are taking advantage of that. The problem in this country is that the electorate is populated with these fools and our leaders will play to that and, as obvious as the face on your nose, it works.

Rant on!

I refuse to gather and move with the sheeple. I have a mind of my own and know how to use it. Look at everything in our life. Commercials, political speeches, promotions, legal defenses, contract negotiations and elections are all marketed based on an apathetic, uneducated and lazy public. The same people that have so little concern for their own lives, that reality TV is one of the most promising markets at this time in history. We have people living vicariously through other's celebrity whether the medium be TV, cinema, stage, music or just a rich bitch which upon the media has bestowed some type of special privilege while producing absolutely nothing. Meanwhile, they remain the fool and making life altering decisions based upon. I choose to not be or play the fool.

The fact that you mentioned the digitally provided fireworks and the lip-syncing tells me you place some stock in the media. The firework footprints were identified shortly after appearing on the screen as being digitally-enhanced graphics added and we not real. Yet, the media lacking the ability to provide intelligent coverage, chose to try and make you, the viewer, feel as if you were cheated out of something. If anyone wasn't smart enough to realize those fireworks were not actually occuring as being shown on their TV screen, they probably also believe that people conveniently die in alphabetical order. And lip-syncing? So what? This is not an uncommon practice, especially at extremely large venues and events. All of a sudden it is an international incident? Were there not plenty of other things going on in Beijing and the rest of the world that are just a tad more important than this that NBC felt compelled to make sure every one of their network shows covered this to some level?

The days of Cronkite and truthful and meaningful reporting of fact are long gone and why? Because the crash dummies in this world suck it up like there is no tomorrow.

To me, the general view of the Olympics is no different. Whatever "message" the media is shoving down your throat is only as meaningful as you allow it to be. Somewhere along the way, somebody has to say, "stop!" Stop watching stupid shows. Stop buying the products of those who treat you like an idiot. Stop electing people who think the you aren't smart enough to make decisions for yourself. Stop playing the fool and as we have all heard this from our parents, "start using the good brain God (or whatever concept of life's origin in which you believe) gave you."

Rant off!

JMHO
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by Skarp » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:24 pm

I'm sorry. Could you please explain again why our best atheletes shouldn't compete against everyone else's best athletes? And if nationalism is antithetical to "Olympism," why do they play the national anthem of the champion's home country?

The IOC's charter describes a utopian fantasy land. It's completely divorced from reality. And making decisions based on a reality that you wish existed is foolishness in the extreme.
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by 2bucketdad » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:43 pm

Who knew that womens diving was such a fantastic sport, it ranks right up there with beach volleyball! :shock: :D
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