LBR Question - What constitutes "making a play"?

[hit4power]

Playing NFHS rules (although I don't think it matters)

R1 on 3B, batter takes ball 4 and heads to 1B. Ball is returned to F1, who is standing in the circle and is holding the ball in her hand with hand positioned shoulder high just in front of her shoulder. BR reaches 1B (so LBR now in effect) and R1 breaks for home. F1 leaves the circle in the process of making an underhand toss to F2, but ball arrives too late and R1 scores. Base ump rules that since F1 had the ball up by her shoulder ("not in a normal position to make or prepare to make a pitch") that she was making a play on the runner and hence, LBR did not apply. She did not fake a throw or make any particular motion that I would say constituted making, or attempting to make, or faking a play on the runner. She just stood there until the runner broke for home.

I know this is a "had to be there" situation, but I'm curious to hear from some blues as to what do you look for to decide that F1 is making a play on a runner and thus LBR is not in effect.

[Comp]

Any action that could be an attempt at a play. As you said, had to be there, but holding a ball up by your shoulder certainly sounds like it could look like she was attempting to throw or prepare to throw.

[MTR]

A play is basically an act or action by a defender which could result in a runner (for the purpose of the LBR) being put out.

Raising an arm as if to make a throw is almost always considered a play.

[Coach11]

Based on your description of the event, I don't know why you (or the ump) would have been concerned with the LBR.

[Bretman]

Aside from the question about how the pitcher held her arm being a play or not, there are a couple of other things on this one that might involve the Look Back Rule. Since the umpire judged that the pitcher's initial action did constitute "a play", they're kind of moot points. But if the initial raised arm was not judged to be "a play"...

- Where was the runner at third actually standing when the batter-runner touched first base?

If she was on the bag when the LBR kicked in, she should have been out for leaving her base.

If she was off the bag, then she would have every right to immediately advance toward home.

- What was the timing between the time the LBR kicked in and R1 started advancing?

Yes, the pitcher did make an actual "play" when she started to exit the circle to make the underhand toss home. Before that point, if R1 was off the bag, did she remain standing still before heading home and before the pitcher started her play? If so, then she would be out. You'd have to determine which came first- the runner's extended pause or the pitcher's "play" on her.

Again, that's all kind or irrelevant, since the raised arm had already been judged as a play attempt. Since it was, the runners were free to stop, go or reverse direction as they pleased.

[hit4power]

I was trying not to make this a second guessing discussion about the play itself, since it's a judgement call and you HTBT. I felt, and still do, that the judgement that F1 was attempting a play was a stretch and so was curious what physical cues the blues look for in deciding that a play is being made. I didn't think that standing with your feet side by side and holding the ball up in front of your shoulder (sort of like you'd hold a drink if you were about to sip it while standing up) was enough to get a "making a play" call, but at least one blue felt differently.

That said, to Bretman's questions:

Where was the runner at third actually standing when the batter-runner touched first base?

I thought she had gone back to stand on 3B. It's possible she had not quite gotten there. I was running the scoreboard,keeping the book, and paying more attention to the BR (since I thought she might take off for 2B) and so was not fully focused on where R1 was when BR reached 1B. From the followup discussion I had with the ump, I have to assume he felt she had gone back to 3B, otherwise the discussion wouldn't have been about F1 making a play.

If she was off the bag, then she would have every right to immediately advance toward home

Agree, emphasis on immediately (see below)

What was the timing between the time the LBR kicked in and R1 started advancing?

Yes, the pitcher did make an actual "play" when she started to exit the circle to make the underhand toss home. Before that point, if R1 was off the bag, did she remain standing still before heading home and before the pitcher started her play? If so, then she would be out. You'd have to determine which came first- the runner's extended pause or the pitcher's "play" on her.

BR had reached first base, and R1 was not standing still unless she was on 3B. She was either there or moving back to 3B when her coach hollered at her to go. Again, based on how the ump responded to my "why no LBR violation?" question, I have to assume she was either on 3B or headed towards it, not standing still, because F1 had the ball for more than a second or two before R1 took off. It was almost like a very delayed steal - everyone had relaxed thinking nothing was going to happen and then bang. Give 'em credit, it was a heads-up play.

[vcblue]

The arm up in the air is misconceived as an attempt to make a play. It leads an umpire to determine intent. What is the difference from the hand with the ball at the side verse the hand with the ball at the shoulder or even in the air? In all cases the ball can be thrown, yes one may get there faster than the others, but you will never hear an ump state she was attempt to make a play with the hand at the side.

R1 should have been ruled out.

[vcblue]

Think about the mechanic of a throw. Whether at the side or at the shoulder a ball can be thrown. Pumping the arm is different, but just having it up there is nothing.

[anonlooker]

Wait. Which arm is in there air?

[vcblue]

You make my point, yes a normal position before the pre-pitch mechanics could be in the circle with the hands at the side, however there is no rule that says that is the only position she must be in to enforce the LBR. She may be looking right at the runner with the ball in her hand and that hand at or above her shoulder, but until I see some type of pumping motion (which would give me reason to believe she is making a play) or throwing the ball. I have nothing. What do I do if I make this call and she comes up to me and say, "blue, I was on stretching"? Do I tell I don't believe you or do I reverse my call? The bottom line is umpires can't read the minds of players and umpires should not make a call just because "through experience" you know what the intent is of the motion.