Jury Idiocy Comes to Montana

[Tumblebug]

I wonder if these parents would have sued if no one had come forward with a sales pitch about how they needed to pursue a big claim to “help” teach these big corporations a lesson and “help” make sure that the same thing would not happen to someone else (don’t worry about expenses, we’ll take it on a 33% contingency).

Notice the use of “help.” This way, no one has to learn anything, and nothing has to change, and the sales pitch is still valid.

BINGO!

[Tumblebug]

One more pile of drivel, then I better get something done before I get fired.

Angle of concern was mentioned in this topic. Geometry is fighting against our girls here - a ball that hits a softball pitcher right between the eyes will pass harmlessly over the head of a baseball pitcher standing 20 feet further back. There's approximately a 6.3 degree window in which a ball has to travel to strike somewhere on the body of a 6'2" baseball pitcher standing 56' from the plate. A 5'8" pitcher standing 35' from the plate has a 9.2 degree window in which she can be struck. Our softball pitcher has around a 50% greater probability of being struck than a baseball pitcher. And it is probably worse than that, since a baseball pitcher's motion causes him to lean forward significantly, reducing his height. The softball pitcher is standing more upright in comparison. Perhaps this gives the softball pitcher a greater chance to defend herself, perhaps not. But she certainly presents a much larger target for the ball.

Add to that the gender difference in reaction times (which is decreasing over time, and isn't large, but definitely exists), and a larger safety margin should exist for softball players over baseball players.

The angle of concern is nowhere near that high for either gender for a couple of reasons. First, it is a compound angle, meaning that there are angles in both the x and y axis to be considered. Both have to be right (or more appropriately wrong) to strike a player.

The Y angle (up and down) is larger and is based on height. The X angle of concern is much smaller and is based on width. The average woman is about 16 inches across at her shoulders. The X angle of concern from 35ft for a grown woman is approximately 2 degrees. If you are not within both the 2 degrees and the 9 degrees on a perfectly hit ball there is no danger at all.

Second, the target is moving and the effort, while incomplete, is to avoid the ball.

If you review the video of MLB players that almost get hit they are actually beginning to react in anticipation far before the reaction time. Anticipation is almost never considered in any of this. But we are dealing with athletes that are hopefully paying attention. There are several indicators that precede contact that give an indication that the ball is coming back at you. Proper positioning and anticipation can increase the available time significantly and therefore reduce the angle of concern.

[SkinnyFats]

I assume a woman's head is roughly the same size as a man's. Can you please quantify how much more likely you think it is for a softball pitcher to be hit in the head than a baseball pitcher, based on the angle of concern, given her much closer position to the plate?

By the way, you're right, I should have taken both dimensions into account in my computation. The angle of concern for the softball pitcher's entire body is 50% greater in one dimension, and maybe 30% greater in the other (depending on their relative width), so the softball player is actually 95% more likely to have a ball struck at an angle that could impact her, not 50% more likely. And assuming identical skull dimensions, the girl's head target size is 2.25 times as large as the boy's.

[Tumblebug]

I assume a woman's head is roughly the same size as a man's. Can you please quantify how much more likely a softball pitcher is to be hit in the head than a baseball pitcher, based on the angle of concern, given her much closer position to the plate?

if they don't move their head, the angle of concern for a softball player is approximately .8 degrees and a baseball player would be roughly .5 degrees

[Crabby_Bob]

I assume a woman's head is roughly the same size as a man's. Can you please quantify how much more likely a softball pitcher is to be hit in the head than a baseball pitcher, based on the angle of concern, given her much closer position to the plate?

if they don't move their head, the angle of concern for a softball player is approximately .8 degrees and a baseball player would be roughly .5 degrees

Shouldn't this be expressed as a solid angle?

[SkinnyFats]

if they don't move their head, the angle of concern for a softball player is approximately .8 degrees and a baseball player would be roughly .5 degrees

So the softball player's angle of concern is 60% larger - in one direction. We're working in two dimensions here, right? I believe the softball's player's angle of concern in two dimensions (head target size) is 1.5**2 = 2.25x, 125% larger, as stated in my previous post. That's not really right, because maybe we should use the area of a circle and not a square, unless she's a blockhead. Whatever. Perhaps you mean it's 1.6**2 = 2.56x, 156% larger head target size? At any rate, it is significantly higher than the baseball pitcher.

[Tumblebug]

if they don't move their head, the angle of concern for a softball player is approximately .8 degrees and a baseball player would be roughly .5 degrees

So the softball player's angle of concern is 60% larger - in one direction. We're working in two dimensions here, right? I believe the softball's player's angle of concern in two dimensions (head target size) is 1.5**2 = 2.25x, 125% larger, as stated in my previous post. That's not really right, because maybe we should use the area of a circle and not a square, unless she's a blockhead. Whatever. Perhaps you mean it's 1.6**2 = 2.56x, 156% larger head target size? At any rate, it is significantly higher than the baseball pitcher.

I'm not really sure where you are getting all that but the difference is about 35%. none of the numbers match up because of rounding. I wasn't trying to compare baseball to softball. I was just making the point that the probabilities of being hit by a ball is not just the product of a single "angle of concern" but that it is a much more complex scenario than that.

[SkinnyFats]

OK. I'll take you at your word that you don't see what I'm getting at, and I'll explain, hopefully without seeming like a total asshat.

One thing is 0.5 units long. Something else is 0.8 units long. The thing that is 0.8 long is 1.6 times as big, or 60% larger than the thing that is 0.5 units long. Now, one thing is 0.5 units long in one dimension, and 0.5 units long in the other dimension. It has an area of 0.25 square units. Something else is 0.8 units in one dimension, and 0.8 units in the other dimension, so it has an area of .64 square units. The second item is 2.56 times as big as the first item, or 156% larger.

I am trying to compare baseball to softball. My point is that the softball pitcher is far more likely to be hit in the head by the ball than the baseball pitcher, because she is much closer to the plate, and thus the number of balls hit that can actually strike her in the head is larger - because her angle of concern is larger. Heck, if she finished her motion 6' away from the plate, she'd get hit a lot, because her angle of concern would be huge. In fact, the number of balls that can strike her in the head is 2.56 times as large as the number that can strike a baseball pitcher, because he's much further away.

Look at it this way - assume a ball is hit by a batter at nose level and ignore gravity. Only the balls that hit the softball pitcher near the nose would hit the baseball pitcher anywhere in the head. A ball that hit the softball pitcher in the chin would strike the baseball pitcher in the chest, missing his head. A ball that hit the softball pitcher in the forehead would sail over the baseball pitcher's head. A ball that hit the softball pitcher's cheekbone would go wide of the baseball pitcher. Etc, etc. The softball pitcher is in a more dangerous location; she's much more likely to have a ball struck which could hit her in the head.

If you take a pistol, and try to shoot someone in the head, is it easier to shoot someone 20' away or 100' away? Your margin for error is much greater for the closer target, so the target is much easier to hit. In exactly the same way, the softball pitcher is much easier to hit than a baseball pitcher. In fact, she's 2.56 times as easy to hit, assuming the angles of concern you gave of 0.5 and 0.8.

If a softball pitcher is 2.56 times as easy to hit than a baseball pitcher, she requires more protection than a baseball pitcher. Period.

[anonlooker]

Great. Make sure your kid wears a mask.

[Tumblebug]

SkinnyFats

You need to look at the math again. You should start over and don't use my numbers; your assumptions may be different than mine. However, in any case you don't get to increase both the angle and the area and add them. They do the same thing. The added angle accounts for the added area or the added area accounts for the added angle. But the math is inconsequential because it its incomplete.

I don’t believe your 2.56 times number (I get 1.46 times using 41 and 60 or 1.11 using 41 and 46) but even if a batted ball in fastpitch is twice as likely to be inside the angle of concern as baseball, I don’t see an issue that warrants a change in the game. What percentages of all hits are hit hard enough to be too fast to react to? What percentages of those hits are hit in the angle of concern? You are talking about a pitch speed/batspeed combination, impact location barrel (sweet spot?), contact angle (angle X) of the bat, contact angle (angle Y) of the ball on the bat all corresponding with the moving pitcher's intersecting position. How often is it probable that all of those things come together?

But I don't want to be the guy in your which is safer argument. The answer doesn't interest me because I don’t think any part of either game is unsafe. However, balls struck by any bat can reach speeds that may cause injury to players and spectators. Protective gear and caution should be used when playing either game.

I think if you think your DD is unsafe you should petition to have the pitching distance increased. I think both youth baseball and youth softball should enlarge the infields and move the pitchers back. If you move the pitchers back the game gets more offense, I like that. I get more offense and you get a safer pitcher. So you got no beef with me.