Hitting: tip & myth of the week

[MrHittingCoach]

I agree with you sbphil about the use of video. I've been using video analysis since 2001. The pitching coach I work next to has been using it since the late 80's. I think anyone who doesn't use video is coaching in the dark ages.

Where I don't agree, which should be obvious by now, is with your allegiance to Professor Nyman. I am not a Setpro follower. I'm one of the other idiots. The ones who are steeped in tradition and too dumb to understand "actual" swing mechanics...(Nyman's words)

Not trying to offend anyone, but making a statement and showing a video is hardly proof of anything. Saying "its crystal clear" to everyone is like saying if you don't see what Scott is talking about, you're an idiot. What is crystal clear is who likes Nyman's "scientific" theories. Not MLB & not most college coaches! He said it himself; the people buying his theories and his training tools are the parents. Btw, he's not the only one to ever do research on the biomechanics of swinging a bat or throwing a ball...

I love talking about baseball and softball, especially hitting. But, I have never had a discussion with a Setpro disciple that didn't end up the same way. Him displaying the same aforementioned attitude that the professor himself is proud to display. "he's right and you're wrong"! Why can't we just have a discussion, agree to disagree and allow any one who gives a care to decide for themselves?

If you want to talk hitting thats kool. If not thats ok too. I'm still going to post hitting tips from time to time unless NumeroUno tells me not to. People can decide for themselves.

I'm sure you guys are great coaches. If you have 70 former players in college, that is awesome! But, its NOT because your teaching the Setpro theories. Its because you are great coaches, you have a great organization and you recruit the best talent.

Have fun!

Greg

PS. Any parents in the Modesto area who want their daughters to hit the ball harder & more often, give me a call. I teach the same mechanics of the swing that most MLB organizations and most college programs teach. Confidence, preparation, short to the ball, explosive, efficient, rotation, separation, balance, great vision, leverage, aggressiveness, hands inside the ball, palm up/palm down, visualization, bat head acceleration, accuracy, barrel to the ball, mental toughness, good extension, how to hit to all fields and the proper sequence of the swing.
I teach hitters how to incorporate the keys to successful hitting into their style. How to increase their bat speed and improve their vision skills. How to boost their confidence and be mentally tough enough to face any pitcher!!!

[PDad]

Another series of enlightening posts by ssarge! I sent him a correction to the Physics terms he uses and he suggested I post it.

Are they extending towards the pitcher, or are they moving inside and consequently horizontally tightening the swing arc and creating centripetal force (same as an ice skater pulling his hands closer to his body)?

The increase in rotational velocity is due to the conservation of angular momentum. The batter/skater has to supply additional centripetal force to tighten the arc.

People can experience this by sitting in a swivel chair, spinning with their arms and legs extended out and then pulling their arms/legs in.

[sbphil]

Wow Greg! I don't even know how to respond to your post or attack or whatever it was. First, I never mentioned Paul Nyman or Setpro. Second, I could hardly be described as being one of his disciples. Third, by my saying that video can make a point crystal clear is in no way calling you an idiot, or criticizing you in any way. You said that you wanted to discuss hitting, then when someone joins the discussion, you attack the poster and "Professor Nyman," while apparently feeling or pretending that you have been taken under attack. No one attacked you - certainly not me, and IMHO certainly not Scott. I rarely post on this board, and you have just reminded me why. Best wishes for your future hitting "discussions."
Regards,
Phil

[ssarge]

Greg:

I agree with you sbphil about the use of video. I've been using video analysis since 2001. The pitching coach I work next to has been using it since the late 80's. I think anyone who doesn't use video is coaching in the dark ages.

Where I don't agree, which should be obvious by now, is with your allegiance to Professor Nyman. I am not a Setpro follower. I'm one of the other idiots. The ones who are steeped in tradition and too dumb to understand "actual" swing mechanics...(Nyman's words)

Distilling all that I said and the video clips that I offered and determining it is an apologetic for Paul Nyman and Setpro is literally discouraging to me. I did mention Nyman twice in my posts, both times in reference to a simulation he did concerning the forces developed in the swing. I made no other endorsement of Setpro or Nyman, and I offered to help you get copies of the source material so you could review it ( did not hear back from you). The simulation was done with engineering software which is accepted universally for its scientific accuracy. To dismiss the conclusions Nyman reached because you don't like Setpro, him, or me, is just less than fair - and not helpful to the discussion. Either the software he used is accurate and demonstrates the forces in the swing or it isn't. If you feel it isn't, could you support that in some way other than saying you don't like Nyman?

I AM gratified to see that you have used video for a decade. That's longer than I have, actually. Perhaps you could post some video supporting some of your own beliefs?

Also, your further specific comments on the clips I posted would be appreciated. I see scapular loading (abduction / adduction) and tightening of the swing arc pretty clearly demonstrated by these Hall of Famers. What do you see?

Not trying to offend anyone, but making a statement and showing a video is hardly proof of anything. Saying "its crystal clear" to everyone is like saying if you don't see what Scott is talking about, you're an idiot. What is crystal clear is who likes Nyman's "scientific" theories. Not MLB & not most college coaches! He said it himself; the people buying his theories and his training tools are the parents. Btw, he's not the only one to ever do research on the biomechanics of swinging a bat or throwing a ball...

I'm trying - hard - to resist being offended. I agree that a statement(s) and video supporting those statements are not "proof." I DO feel, however, that on THIS thread, it comes a lot closer to proof than anything else being presented.

I also agree with the last sentence in your quote above. And since you are maintaining that you like to discuss hitting, let's do so. What biomechanical evidence has been developed that refutes the theory that tightening of the swing arc - rather than extension - creates more bat speed? In this case, I would urge you to present evidence, rather than citing general - or even specific - statements of coaches and ballplayers. You can find a quote to support ANY position authored by a ballplayer. The question is whether his quote supports what he DOES. In my mind, that is the value of video. It is the ultimate truth detector. I have absolutely no doubt that you could find quotes from Aaron or Vlad that talk about how they strive for extension. And I have no doubt of their sincerity. But language has more limitations than video. In the video, I do NOT see them striving for extension.

It reminds me of the story Don Slaught once told me in a phone conversation. When he was developing RightView Pro, he wanted to use clips of top MLB hitters, and he successfully negotiated a contract with MLB and the MLBPA. Obviously, he wanted to use Bonds, and intended to do so. In fact, I have the clip he intended to use, though it was never released as an RVP product. As it turns out, MLB had a BIG problem with him using Bonds, since Bonds had opted out of the MLBPA in all things related to licensing, and was going it on his own. But Slaught played with Bonds for several years in Pittsuburg, and while he ultimately did not use the clip, he DID film Bonds. Slaught called Bonds to ask if he'd help out, and Bonds agreed, and actually did it for his old friend and teammate for free. Slaught went to Spring Training to film Bonds.

After the filming, the two were seated in the dugout, and Slaught asked Bonds how he thought he was swinging. Bonds said, "OK, Don, but I don't feel like I am hitting down through the ball enough." "Well," Slaught said, "that's because you don't. You hit UP through the ball."

"Don, you're CRAZY! I hit down through the ball to get backspin, and so did you, and so does everyone else. You're f'ing bonkers."

And Slaught showed him the clip he had just filmed using RVP, and used the drawing tools to show Bonds his bat path. And Bonds was literally stunned to see that his swing trajectory was in fact up to the ball, with a bat BELOW his hands. Just as is true about 99.9% of the time for every elite hitter who isn't fooled by a pitch. Slaught told me that Bonds was absolutely flabbergasted.

Later that season, Slaught was filming at the All Star Game HR contest. Bonds hadn't seen him yet, but Slaught overheard Bonds go up to ARod and say, "Alex, you know you don't really hit down through the ball, right?

I also heard Bonds talk about how he liked to extend his arms out to the ball. I don't know what the statement meant to him specifically, but video pretty clearly shows that he did that LESS than just about any hitter in history.

Slaught also tells the story of an MLB hitting coach (I'll keep him nameless), around the year 1998, who was distrustful of video. One of the new generation of geeks was using video in the clubhouse to make a point to a hitter about what "really" happened in the swing. Apparently, it was persuasive, but it incensed the MLB coach, because it was different than what he had always taught. His response to the slow motion video was, "yeah, but that's not how it happens in REAL time."

BTW, Slaught doesn't like Nyman, either. And it is mutual. Both have specifically and vehemently stated their disdain for the other in conversations I've been a part of.

I find value in both, listen to both, and try to reach my own conclusions, which also are colored by my experience as a hitting coach. I do listen to what players have to say about their swings. But ultimately, I have found it advantageous to use video over quoting ballplayers. Let's look at what they really do, not what they say they do. Based on your use of video for a decade, sounds as if you agree, and I am looking forward to continuing our discussion using video and other supporting material as the basis.

I love talking about baseball and softball, especially hitting. But, I have never had a discussion with a Setpro disciple that didn't end up the same way. Him displaying the same aforementioned attitude that the professor himself is proud to display. "he's right and you're wrong"! Why can't we just have a discussion, agree to disagree and allow any one who gives a care to decide for themselves?

Where have I said "you're wrong?" To you, or anyone? I feel I've presented my position, and attempted to support it using video. You haven't addressed the video, or presented any evidence supporting YOUR position. You instead APPEAR to be marginalizing what I have to say because you don't like one of the sources I have cited. Or don't like me. While I agree with your statement that we should "allow anyone who gives a care [sic] to decide for themselves," I fear you haven't currently cast yourself advantageously in that process.

Perhaps we can start again?

In the material I have presented, and in the video I have offered, what specifically do you disagree with? Let's have the discussion you have indicated you would embrace.

With cautious regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Are they extending towards the pitcher, or are they moving inside and consequently horizontally tightening the swing arc and creating centripetal force (same as an ice skater pulling his hands closer to his body)?

The increase in rotational velocity is due to the conservation of angular momentum. The batter/skater has to supply additional centripetal force to tighten the arc.

People can experience this by sitting in a swivel chair, spinning with their arms and legs extended out and then pulling their arms/legs in.

PDad:

I really appreciate the helpful correction. I am NOT a hard science guy, and that is one of the reason I quote others who are, rather than postulate on my own.

Or try to. Sometimes I DO go off on my own, and when I get terms or concepts wrong, I appreciate the correction. I learn, and more importantly, the correct data gets out there for others.

Ultimately, I appreciate your scientific conclusion that rotational velocity is increased through tightening of the swing arc.

Also, as I told you in response to your PM, over the years, I have whiled away some hours spinning in my chair. In addition to being pretty fun, it is illustrative to the discussion at hand.

Thanks much, and best regards,

Scott

[triplecrown]

Greg, you have probably far exceeded what you had hoped for when you first started this thread, you have been able to attract some very knowledgeable hitting people to join in your discussion, trust me these guys are in a whole different galaxy than you and if you plan on continuing giving instruction I would embrace their comments and ask for more and NOT bite their throats as if they are challenging you, as the way I read it they are just providing information, geeeez good luck...

[ssarge]

Scapula loading is something that virtually all elite hitters accomplish, and almost all of them do it intuitively. It doesn't get talked about very much.

To help folks understand it, I have posted a couple of animated GIFs which illustrate it. These simulations were originlly developed by Paul Nyman at Setpro. I really like these kinds of animations - and the "claymation" type figures he developed over the years. He used technology to emulate real video and create these identical figures, and I find them much more illustrative to the naked eye than video.

Scapula loading involves the adduction (horizontally pinching or retracting towards the center) of the rear shoulder, accompanied by the abduction (stretching from the center) of the front shoulder. This action is reversed in the unload portion of the swing. The net effect of these two loading movements (front shoulder abduction and rear shoulder adduction) is an appearance that the hitter is counter-rotating or turning her upper body inward. That's not what is going on under the covers (and an easy "proof" comes from looking at the hitter's belly button, which will still be pointed at the plate, even as it looks as if the upper body has turned inward or counter rotated. Obviously, something very different is actually happening).

The two figures show REAR shoulder loading only. The first figure shows a load which shows proper scapula loading, while the second figure DOES NOT reflect scapula loading.

This simple mechanical action ties the bat to the body, and when combined with the horizontal abduction (stretching) of the front shoulder, sets up the tightening of the swing arc (sometimes called the hook). Once a player with good posture and a scap load maintained to bat lag gets around the corner, the swing is almost on auto-pilot. Good things are going to happen a high percentage of the time.

I want to be fair and clear that the hook (tightening of the swing arc) sometimes does ACCOMPANY extension, especially on outside pitches. Elite hitters accomplish it all of the time. But if you are going to focus on one or the other as a hitter, I would focus on scapula loading / unloading, and let extension happen when it does. Rather than FOCUSING on extension. IMO, scapula loading / unloading is a CAUSAL action. Extension, when it happens, is an EFFECT of forces set up in the swing far earlier. And an artificial (I don't mean that to be pejorative) concentration on it can result in pushing, lunging, disconnection, etc.

To ME, this is not semantics or word play. It is reasonably easy to put the body in a position that overlays the position of great hitters. Unless you can really look under the covers, the overlay can appear to be pretty spot on. But if you attain the position using different muscles (or the same muscles firing in a different sequence) results are going to vary. And vary for reasons BEYOND just talent / experience (those are obviously factors as well). Attaining the same position a Cochran does at contact is one thing. Getting there as a result of using the same efficient bio-mechanics is quite another thing.

Anyway, hope the pictures are illustrative.

Best regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

See the attached clip of a Katie Cochran swing. Sorry for the small size and poor clarity - I really had to torture this clip to get it under the 250KB site attachment limit. If you download the clip, you can use QuickTime to play frame-by-frame, and you can stretch the size to whatever is comfortable. Might lose even a little more clarity, but hopefully, you'll be able to see what I am referencing. If not, it is a little more clear in the original clip, and for anyone interested, PM me w/ your eMail address and I'll send it to you.

As Katie loads, you can see the horizontal adduction (pinching / retraction) of the rear shoulder towards the spine. It's subtle, but not all THAT subtle - I think it will be clearly viewable as you toggle the video back-and-forth between the frames. You'll see the slight pinching of the rear shoulder, but perhaps it is even easier to look at how the line of her shoulders appears to have changed. Looks as if she has merely turned inward. But that isn't what she has done - notice how her belly button is still pointed towards the plate. What Katie has done is stretch her front shoulder away from her spine, and retract / pinch her rear shoulder towards her spine.

In the last few frames, you can see both a tightening of the swing arc (her hands disappear in front of her body), and a horizontal adduction (pinching) of the FRONT shoulder towards the spine. She has reversed her load, and is unloading. The REAR shoulder is now stretching, and the front shoulder is now pinching / retracting. This is what causes the hands to move inward as she nears contact. She ISN'T simply yanking her hands in. Like all kinetic chain movement, the movement begins at the core (proximal links) and moves outward to the distal links.

This swing by Katie demonstrates a strong scapula / shoulder load, followed by an outstanding scapula / shoulder UNload, and a resultant tightening of the swing arc (definitely in the same horizontal plane, definitely remaining palm up / palm down). And she demonstrates part of why she is, IMO, one of the 2-3 best female hitters in the game today.


I don't happen to have a profile angle of this swing, but if I did, it wouldn't particularly surprise me if Katie was demonstrating what appeared to be extension. Perhaps even extension BEFORE contact. Wouldn't surprise me if she wasn't, either, but my point is that the extension isn't what caused this ball to travel 260 feet.


Katie's dad, who played minor league baseball and studied Ted Williams (among others) voraciously, worked with her for years to shape this amazing swing. In my many conversations with him, I have been impressed with his ability to explain complex concepts in simple language. Certainly, I don't talk about scap loading, sbduction, etc. with youth hitters either. The challenge is always to explain / demonstrate these concepts in terms that the kid understands.

Again, the challenges presented by limitations of language, and once again this illustrates why it is hard to REALLY understand what a ballplayer is struggling to convey (as we all do) through merely a spoken or written word. But Pat Cochran is able to transcend this, and it is one of the reasons he is a top hitting instructor. If I were in SoCal, I'd feel VERY good about my daughter working with him.

Best regards,

Scott

[MrHittingCoach]

Holy cow! I didn't mean to offend anyone much less attack. wow Phil, please accept my apology.

When you said "as effective as the description was, it was made chrystal-clear to all by the use of the Aaron and Guerrero clips" I was a little taken aback that I was too dumb because I didn't see it.

And Scott, you seemed to be getting impatient with me for not understanding.
"I'm obviously not making my point well." & "As I have said three times on this thread" & "Not sure why I'm unable to make this distinction, and don't know what other language to try. But it is a HUGE distinction."
These made me feel the same way. I guess I should have just said to Phil. "not to me" and to you "English only" ??? my bad

I never meant to offend anyone. I re-read my post and I don't think I did, but my apologies!


Scott,
I now know what you mean by scapula load. I think its just a natural movement that happens when you take your hands back. And, I agree with your statement that hitters shouldn't rotate back.

Im not sure we are talking about the same thing when you say 'hinge' and I say 'cocking' the wrists? If I understand you correctly, you're saying that when Aaron tilts his barrel towards the infield, that puts his wrists in a hinge position that ultimately aides in the whip? Which is increased more by pulling the hands in just before contact? the shortening of the arc?

I think the wrists are cocked by keeping the hands close, with the correct hand path, and not casting the barrel too soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8lnSXP9 ... re=related
This video shows IvanR hitting. One of the comments says he looks fooled. Maybe so? but that good extension is what kept him on the ball and still made pretty good contact.
Also, if you stop the video when his hands are in the middle of his torso, the barrel is still close to his shoulder, not casted. then as his hands continue the barrel accelerates to the ball. It didn't have anything to do with the tilt of the barrel or the scapula load imo.
Here's Giambi getting one a little more out front then he would have liked, but his extension was good and he still made good contact, hr. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_o8fUraANE&NR=1

Here is a clip of Uribe making contact much earlier and not the best extension. I have seen other clips of him getting much better extension.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oHDCedW ... re=related

Here's one of Jack Cust going oppo. A lot of times a hitter will not follow through as far when going oppo although Cust does on this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkMtdAb8 ... re=related

Have fun!

Greg

[jtat32]

I'm just a dad, but my observations (if I'm following this correctly):

- I don't think "hinge angle" and "cocked wrists" are equivalent terms. The may describe the same pre-launch position, but hinge angle implies passive unhinging of the wrists, whereas wrist cock implies impending active action by the wrists.

- I don't think Scott is saying that hitters should never extend, I think he's saying that it's not a necessary component of basic swing fundamentals. Pudge does extend in this clip, and it was necessary to do so because he launched early. He allows himself to extend to make contact. Uribe doesn't extend, because he doesn't need to - he's got his swing timed just about perfect.

- I don't see the hand movement you're talking about in his swing. I may be reading wrong, but to me hand movement implies the hands moving independently of the shoulders, not as a result of connection to shoulder rotation. At the point I believe you're describing, I don't see that Pudge's hands have moved much, if at all, in relation to his shoulders. You say that his hands are in the middle of his torso - sort of, but they're still in the middle of the lateral aspect of his torso (or just offset), which has now rotated, just as they were in the beginning of the swing. His hands aren't in the middle of his torso, as defined by being at a point equidistant from either shoulder, until well into follow through, when the bat is pointing down the third base line. By comparison, here is a clip in which the hands are moving in relation to shoulders early in the swing. Something of an unfair comparison, because this is a pitcher, but it's hard to find an MLB swing that isn't connected, and it does illustrate the difference between "hands to the ball" and "turning into the ball":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIa8qBbYK2Y

Great clips, BTW, as are Scott's. This is an interesting discussion, and I hope it can remain cordial. There aren't many people out there, anywhere, who have more insight into this sport than Phil and Scott. I'd hate to see them discouraged from sharing their insight on this forum.

Again, I'm just a dad - feel free to correct, argue, flame, whatever.