Hitting: tip & myth of the week

[ssarge]

Heyall:

We might be talking about slightly different concepts. Tightening the swing radius is a little different than rolling the wrists. AT least as I understand it.

The tightening of the swing radius is in essence, creating a tighter arc while remaining on a single plane. Think of the bat tip tracing the outer ring on a target. And the hands are consequently simultaneously tracing a ring inside of that (closer to the bullseye). If the hands come even MORE inside to a ring even closer to the bullseye, they'll be traveling at the same speed over less distance. The end of the bat basically HAS to whip to keep up. The theory of a centrifuge.

My concern with rolling the wrists is that it causes the tip of the bat to raise, and often leads to ground balls. My sense is that because it is a move which causes changes in plane as well, it can also magnify the possibility of timing error. DO you see it differently?

Best regards,

Scott

[Heyall]

Actually, I was referring to the eloquent and elaborate way of putting things

As to the short swing, inside the ball, etc - I whole heartedly believe that is the best method. Much as a skater spins with hands inside and stops with arms extended, we've always focused on keeping hands in to generate max bat speed and thus far it seems to have worked pretty darn good! My daughter is very adept at this and develops rather amazing power with little follow-through but fast hands and staying inside to the point of contact.

As you suggested, post-contact really shouldn't matter as long as what one does prior does not inhibit the swing up to contact. I'm a pretty big believer that given the momentum and the release of energy over the course of the pre-contact swing, that once the bat is accelerating there isn't an awful lot that a hitter can do and what they do in the load and initially launch really sets things up for what occurs close to the point of contact. If one wants to extend afterwards, great. On the other hand, if they want to drop the bat and run 1/1000th of a second sooner - greater still ! My own daughter finishes rather hands high, but my take is she hits the ball solidly and squarely on a good swing plane and therefore the hands "up there" would only matter so far as where her swing plane and hands are through contact. As long as she is proper to contact and not losing any speed AT contact, I couldn't care less. (Honestly, I think she is losing a little speed and it's something we work at still)

[rbi]

I myself like what Tony Rico does with his hitters and I assume most of his players go to him for lessons as most have same swing. They are extremely "quiet" in the box at setup and stay connected and explode at contact, its impressive and fun to watch. He also teachs to start open which to me is just a timing mechanism and/or a way for hitters to have both eyes more squarely on pitch.

There is more than one way to skin a cat but, .you hear top hitting guys always say "efficient" swing, well IMO his kids swings are pretty dog gone efficient

For him he takes girls that are already very good softball players and teachs them to have "presentation" in the box, and that presentation oozes with confidence (and there is more than one reason this works), I have my DD watch his girls a.b's since we dont live in HB ....

[handsinsidetheball]

I also believe in teaching with a slightly to moderte open stance. I have found in young hitters it helps them understand the mechanics of reach to toe touch and then heal drop without stepping out or pulling off the ball which seems to be a natural tendency for young/new hitters.

[MrHittingCoach]

Most of the hitting world believes a good follow through is essential. I know Tony Rico does!

The first part of a good follow through is getting good extension through the ball.

If you watch good hitters on video from the side, (especially ones who drive the ball), what you'll see after contact: good extension through the ball (hands staying palm up- palm down) head still down, then the beginning of follow through (the top hand begins to roll), then follow through to a high finish.

[BetheBest]

First things First, its important to work on being short to the ball. ie not casting the hands or the barrel. Then work on getting through the ball to good extension. There's a good saying to help remember both concepts: "short to it, long through it". it being the ball.

Greg:

I think you are absolutely right about remaining connected and taking the shortest path to the ball (a circular hand path or "CHP").

After that, I'm not so sure. I am very aware of the C.W. on extension. I own RVP, and have spoken to Slaught personally about this. I have heard Candrea and others talk about it. I have heard pro hitters discuss it on many occasions. And I have seen video demonstrating that they often DO it (but also a lot of video indicating that they don't always, too).

And please understand that I am merely curious, not being argumentative.

But I would ask, why is extension important? The ball has left the bat, and nothing the hitter does from then on will affect ball flight. Which to me argues at least somewhat for irrelevancy, whether the hitter extends, stops, stands on one foot, whatever. Further, the ball is in contact with the bat for less than 1/1000 of a second, so little that the hitter does around the time of contact is going to have much of an effect, either. NOW< what the hitter does just BEFORE contact seems wildly important. But for that 1/1000 of a second DURING, or anytime after? It doesn't seem important to me. I mean it certainly SOUNDS intuitively obvious. And SOUNDS right. But is it, really?

Please understand this is a different conversation than decelerating into the ball, which is obviously wrong. But that said, if you do a Tee Drill with properly executed STOP Swings, I think you'll be stunned by the resultant whip and bat speed. IMO, this is the explanation for why people often observe - and comment on - checked swing HRs. The phenomenon is often attributed - typically derisively - to a hot or illegal bat, but that is not my experience. A sudden STOP to a well-connected swing does result in a whip of the end of the bat.

So does tightening the radius of the swing arc, which is difficult to do if you extend very far past contact. Paul Nyman of Setpro used very sophisticated engineering / physics software to demonstrate that a tightening of the swing radius just before contact can add as much as 40% to TIP bat speed (which is what we care about, right?). His 7-part simulation on the subject is an incredibly scholarly and persuasive work. eMail me for details if you are interested, and I will try to find a link or send you the info, though it is well over 50 MBs.

But there is a LOT of evidence that tightening the swing radius creates incredible whip. And it may be possible to tighten the swing arc WHILE extending, but I personally can't do it.

So I'd ask, assuming consistent bat speed to contact, why is it important to extend PAST contact? In fact, I'll go one further. Once contact has been made, shutting down the swing and starting to run as soon as possible would SEEM desirable just from the hugely pragmatic perspective of trying to get to 1B as soon as possible.

I am very interested in your thoughts, I think this is a great area for discussion. Not sure this is the appropriate forum to do so, as I'm not sure there is much interest. But I'm game if anyone else is. (I am heading out of town for a week, and will have limited connectivity, so may be slow in responding if there IS interest).

Thanks, and best regards,

Scott

Scott - you already know that I agree with you,with that said I teach young hitters to not roll until extension to keep them from rolling at contact. Once this swing path is consistent then I ignore when they roll their wrists unless they start to roll at or before contact again. This is something that I find myself reminding even the best hitters that I coach, my daughter included.

As always it's great to read what you post.......

one of your biggest fans.

Pat Cochran

[sdrew]

Pat,
The NorCal forum? Nice to know you guys are keeping an eye on us.
Greg you are in good company!
You guys doing alright down there with all this rain?

[ssarge]

Scott - you already know that I agree with you,with that said I teach young hitters to not roll until extension to keep them from rolling at contact. Once this swing path is consistent then I ignore when they roll their wrists unless they start to roll at or before contact again. This is something that I find myself reminding even the best hitters that I coach, my daughter included.

As always it's great to read what you post.......

one of your biggest fans.

Pat Cochran

Pat:

Great to hear from you, I plan to call this week to compare schedule notes. Mumma and I would still like to find a way to make a summer clinic work, invoilving you, Katie, and a couple of the other national team members we have discussed. Does Katie have national team schedule yet?

Will call by week's end.


I DEFINITELY agree on not rolling. Palm up / palm down, hands roughly parallel to ground (ideally parallel to ball, trajectory) is what I want to see.

Hope I'm not confusing folks - when I talk about tightening the swing radius, my reference is to simply making the circle of the hands tighter while remaining on the same horizontal plane. Basically moving the hands slightly inward, though it is best accomplished with a reveral of the scapular abduction / adduction established at load.

It is subtle, but very powerful. Great hitters do it intuitively, and are completely unaware that they even do it. Hank Aaron was one of the best at it, but almost all power hitters do it - it's part of how they get the tremendous whip / acceleration in the last video frame before contact. Other hitters can learn to do it.

And I will stand on the obvious point that why extension may look good, and while it often happens, it has NOTHING to do with ball flight. The ball has left the bat and is ambivalent to what the hitter does after that. I guess I am too.


Tony Rico is a great coach, who I respect very much. And he is a great hitting coach. Pat can shed more light on his methodology than I can, since Katie played for him in Gold ball.

That said, Tony has commented publically on other occasions that he doesn't have a huge emphasis on hitting mechanics, but more on the mental side. I also have seen similarity in the mechanics of his players when my teams have competed against him. I would attribute at least part of that similarity to the fact that he (and the Firecrackers) recruit incredibly gifted athletes and skilled players. And gifted athletes approach hitting mechanics VERY similarly. They are savants for motor skills, and their brain / nervous system / body knows what to do. The best hitters on our team look like his hitters, too. The reason we are like 0-5-1 against him in Gold play is that always had about 3 of them, and he always had about 18.

This is also why from launch to impact, most MLB hitters look VERY similar. They may set up different, may follow through different. But for that 0.14 seconds that makes up the actual swing, they are REMARKABLY similar. Despite the fact that each of them had many instructional influences growing up, and virtually all of them had unique (from each other) influences. The challenge fopr other hitters of more modest giftedness is to understand what great hitters do intuitively, and emulate it.


One thing I have always liked about Pat (Cochran) as a hitting instructor is that he has a tremendous focus on the mental side, and a great knowledge of mechanics as well. This is a rare combination, believe me. If mI were in SoCal and had a kid who needed instruction, Pat would be my first call.

Best regards,

Scott

[MrHittingCoach]

Great discussion! I guess there wouldn't be much of one if we all agreed on everything?

I whole-heartedly agree regarding the importance of the mental game. Its funny how most everyone will agree, at least to some extent, that hitting is mostly mental and yet spend most their time on mechanics. One reason I think is because hitters need to practice (correctly) on a regular basis to keep their mechanics dialed in. One because good mechanics are learned not innate and two the timing thats involved. Its why hitting is considered the hardest thing to do in sports.
I think walking and doing flips and a 4" wide board is myself...

At the higher levels of both softball and baseball, it may appear that mechanics are a given. After all, at that level if they didn't have them mastered, they wouldn't be there. Then why do they work on them so often? or do they just hit a lot because they are professionals or the best college hitters? Again, my opinion is they work on them constantly because to hit a ball squarely, takes near perfection. This is a good reason why watching just any video clip of even a great hitter will not always show the exact same mechanics. Hitters don't always take their best swing, more often not.

If it seems like I'm trying to make a case for the importance of good mechanics, I am, but not without a good mental game! I teach my hitters the importance of mechanics, vision skills and a good mental approach. If you think about it, good mechanics are useless without confidence or if you don't see the ball good. Bottom line for me is they're intertwined. The better you are mechanically the 'harder' you will hit the ball when you do hit it. The more confident you are and when you're seeing the ball well, the more 'often' you'll hit it. I am always talking to my hitters about their mental game. If you want to be a good hitter, then think like one.

Scott, I agree with you about keeping your hands close to your body, but I disagree with you on extension. A smaller arc during the entire swing might help you rotate faster from start to finish, but remember we're also trying to hit a ball. And, like you said, once the ball is gone who cares what the bat does. The hands staying close to the body helps us rotate faster like an ice skater. Their hands are close when they spin fast and they start to slow down as their hands move away from their body. Since we are trying to hit a ball and the ball isn't affected by anything the bat does after contact, who cares if our hands start to go away from our body after contact. In other words, I agree that what counts is the force the hitter generates up to contact with the ball. But, what the bat does after contact is an absolute result of what it was doing before contact.

What the bat does after contact does not affect the ball directly, but what the bat does after contact is most certainly a byproduct of what it did before contact. Why don't we just stop the bat as soon after contact as possible and run to first? One its impossible to stop a swinging bat that fast, two you're only saving a fraction of a second at the expense of three most hitters want to hit the ball as hard as they can. ie. to stop right after contact you would have to start stopping before contact which means you're not making contact at max bat speed. Furthermore, if you even slow down right after contact, you started to before contact. (E=MC squared, just kidding)
Good extension through the ball insures contact at your max bat speed. Leaving no doubt that you hit the ball as hard as you are capable.

All that being said, why not error to the side of 'hitting it as hard as you can'? If its a jump you want, then slap or drag. Even if you don't hit for power, the harder you hit the ball the better. The only time its not is when you hit it right at someone. In the broad scheme of hitting a line shot right to someone is better than a Texas leaguer or seeing-eye base hit. Its a mental thang...

Scott, I also agree with you about the set up and the swing up to contact, but I also think good hitters follow through very similarly. In that they get good extension through the ball and roll well after contact. of course, some follow through higher and some use 1 hand vs 2. But I think we agree that some things are part of a hitter's style(their uniqueness) while other things are keys to good mechanics that all good hitters possess.

As far as whip that you mentioned, I believe this acceleration comes from using the hands and wrists correctly. Keeping the barrel above the hands, hands inside the ball close to the body, taking the proper angle (short) to the ball and not casting the barrel too soon. The longer a hitter keeps the barrel close to their back shoulder the stronger a position their hands are in with their wrists cocked. Then, when they release the barrel, they get some extra acceleration('extra' because we all know it mostly comes from the core) into contact. Hitters that do this usually get good extension because they are so explosive to the ball, they can't help but be through it as well.

Also, staying Pup/Pdn longer keeps your barrel in the zone longer. Not only does rolling raise the barrel its the start of you pulling the barrel out of the zone.

It seems to me that we agree mostly. Maybe we just describe it differently? I love the discussion! When I was younger I liked to argue and I hated to lose, what a combo. Now I like to listen, talk, listen, and hopefully learn. Someone will take that as me coming on a forum to learn how to teach hitting, lol. Now there's an interesting subject; "knowledge of good hitting doesn't mean a person can teach it" ???

Have fun!

Greg

[MrHittingCoach]

Happy New Year Tip:

If you want to be a good hitter, then think like a good hitter!


Myth:

Your "mental game" starts just before you get in the batter's box.