WHAT QUALIFIES AS "STEALING" A PLAYER?

[whystealthem]

Ssarge, I understand everything your saying about these kids moving in between seasons. But, doesn't the fact that a kid has committed to another organization a little different? If she was in the middle of tryouts, then hey it wouldn't be an issue. But knowing that a kid has already committed, you still go after them? Taking them out to lunch, etc. If you think they don't waive fees, your sadly mistaken. You think that big lefty went over there and paid? I just feel it'a a little classless to wine and dine a kid that has already said yes to another organization. My $.02 !

[ssarge]

Ssarge, I understand everything your saying about these kids moving in between seasons. But, doesn't the fact that a kid has committed to another organization a little different? If she was in the middle of tryouts, then hey it wouldn't be an issue. But knowing that a kid has already committed, you still go after them? Taking them out to lunch, etc. If you think they don't waive fees, your sadly mistaken. You think that big lefty went over there and paid? I just feel it'a a little classless to wine and dine a kid that has already said yes to another organization. My $.02 !

I don't know anything about the inner workings of the Sorcerers, and I don't see their books. It's none of my business.

I do know one thing, though. I was at the Academy when Phil RECEIVED a call from Ricketts's dad. I was standing right next to him. You can take that one to the bank.

I believe everybody should keep commitments. Players and teams. I just don't necessarily know what the commitments are, and I don't know how other third parties can, either. Or how it is any business of any of us.

If the Sting have a complaint, they should address it privately. Bob has Phil's number.

A public forum like this is NOT the place, and "he said / she said / they told me" is just NOT fair to anyone - not the player, and not either Club.

Regards,

Scott

[stan the man]

[I don't know anything about the inner workings of the Sorcerers, and I don't see their books. It's none of my business.

I do know one thing, though. I was at the Academy when Phil RECEIVED a call from Ricketts's dad. I was standing right next to him. You can take that one to the bank.

C'mon Ssarge, if you're hanging tight with PM in his office while he's trying talking to the top prospect in the country's daddy...you know more about the Sorcerers business than you're letting on. And you know how the recruitment seeds begin getting planted to all the top kids at an early age (14+) with this group, so the minute something doesn't start going right for little miss superstar...shes off to follow the rainbow with the ones that have been calling.

I guess to all you GOLD organization heads out there, let this be a lesson...suck up big time to all your talent (and their parents)...cause its your fault if the extra bunting practice you made them do last weekend cause of a missed assignment makes them unhappy and want to leave.

Anyhow, I'm happy about the feedback this forum has drawn. I think it gives all who have taken the time to read some of the posts what the lay of the land is with some of the Norcal orgs. Especially the Shockers...sounds like a great org.

I think you're absolutly wrong about this not being the place to talk about these types of issues. Apparantly, lots of people are reading/chiming in on the subject. If anything, it gives people who are always hearing about kids in these situations something to think about. And even though there may NOT be anything wrong with leaving a team you think has taken you as far as you can in the game...there are reprecussions that take place on the team you left (think you're dogging your teammates/friends) as well as the team you are going to (and possibly benching a player who has been true to their organization who will now be passed up).


Its just what the game is....but that doesn't mean everyone has to accept the "ugly" side that it is. ......my $.02

[whystealthem]

Fair enough. Well see how it goes on the field. Still don't like how these coaches operate. Maybe these families should be the ones that get ripped. They're the ones leaving.

[ssarge]

C'mon Ssarge, if you're hanging tight with PM in his office while he's trying talking to the top prospect in the country's daddy...you know more about the Sorcerers business than you're letting on.

OR, he was giving a lesson at the Sorcerer Academy, I was giving a lesson at the Sorcerer Academy at the same time, and his phone rang. Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday nights, I stand about 10 feet away from the guy. Every week.

And you know how the recruitment seeds begin getting planted to all the top kids at an early age (14+) with this group, so the minute something doesn't start going right for little miss superstar...shes off to follow the rainbow with the ones that have been calling.

I have never seen what mechanism Phil uses to track players. But I would assume that he does what every other quality Gold coach does - keep a rolodex of every good player in the area, and followup with those players every off-season. And sell his butt off about his organization an y chance he gets. That is what coaches DO. That is what college coaches do, too.

I think you're absolutly wrong about this not being the place to talk about these types of issues. Apparantly, lots of people are reading/chiming in on the subject.

There are about 2 people chiming in, with three identities apiece. You being one with multiple identities, and you / they making the same points over and over. "The Sorcerers are wrong to recruit players." "Players are wrong to leave their team to play on the Sorcerers."

OK, we got it. You don't like the Sorcerers.

Anyhow, I'm happy about the feedback this forum has drawn. I think it gives all who have taken the time to read some of the posts what the lay of the land is with some of the Norcal orgs. Especially the Shockers...sounds like a great org.

Why the sarcasm? You don't like me, you don't like what I have posted, and you don't like that I defended the Sorcerers, so now the SHOCKERS are an organization to belittle? Why, exactly? I think they ARE a great organization, and I am very proud of the association I had with them. In fact, they are starting a 23U team this summer, and I hope my daughter is selected to play for them.

I guess to all you GOLD organization heads out there, let this be a lesson...suck up big time to all your talent (and their parents)...cause its your fault if the extra bunting practice you made them do last weekend cause of a missed assignment makes them unhappy and want to leave.

Not unsurprisingly, YOU continue to miss the lesson. The lesson is that if you have kids who would leave because of bunting practice, or if they would leave because they think they can get a better deal elsewhere, you are better off letting them go. And if numbers of kids are leaving an organization, it ISN'T the fault of the club(s) they go to. The fault lies much closer to home.

[ssarge]

Fair enough. Well see how it goes on the field. Still don't like how these coaches operate. Maybe these families should be the ones that get ripped. They're the ones leaving.

Yeah, maybe. But why do you think blue chip athletes leave a program?

IMO, they aren't easy to recruit away, IF they are happy. It ISN'T about playing time. They will play wherever they are. It almost never is about money, despite what people want to believe. In my experience, the blue chip athletes are the FIRST to pay their fees, and you don't have to ask twice. It isn't about getting signed - these kind of kids are going to get signed no matter what, or are already verballed. And realistically, no one leaves the #17 team in the country to go to the number #13 team in the country for competitive reasons.

Athletes get recruited away because they AREN'T happy. That's not to say they have a reason to be unhappy, necessarily. Doesn't necessarily mean they end up making a better decision. But the reason they make it at all is dissatisfaction.

Regards,

Scott

[whystealthem]

Ssarge, there's one thing you don't seem to hear. You keep saying it okay to RECRUIT players, or players can leave a team. I hear that. How about players that have already told their team I'm committed to you? Then these teams still actively goes after them! You would think the mighty Sorcerers wouldn't have to do this right? Everybody wants to play for them, right?

Yes, it is okay to recruit, or for players to leave a team in between seasons. But not when there has been a commitment made. C'mon ssarge, taking a young athlete out to lunch to try and convince her to play on this all mighty team? Maybe they're not as mighty as they think. They just use everyone's players that have been groomed already! Look at their roster, half of it is Grape, Sting, and RR , and all the kids that have signed before they were there.

[ssarge]

Ssarge, there's one thing you don't seem to hear. You keep saying it okay to RECRUIT players, or players can leave a team. I hear that. How about players that have already told their team I'm committed to you? Then these teams still actively goes after them! You would think the mighty Sorcerers wouldn't have to do this right? Everybody wants to play for them, right?

I DO hear you, and I respect your opinion. I just don't think it's quite so simple.

Players should not tell a team they are committed if they aren't. And if they are still shopping, they aren't.

That certainly happens. I don't think it happens as much as you think. Coaches are like anyone else - they hear what they want to hear. A kid says "maybe" or "probably," and others HEAR "rock solid commitment."

But beyond that, how does another team know a player is committed? Is there anyway to know other than to ask? And if you ask, and the kid says, "well, maybe," where are you?

Is there some giant registry out there that says which kids are available, and which aren't? How often does it get updated.


I don't know about this lunch thing you kep referencing, but really, your issue seems to be that the Sorcerers got Rickets, and she left the Sting.

Without question, that worked out well for the Sorcerers. She pitched well all summer, then got really hot at the right time.

Easy to make the Sorcerers and Phil a villan in all that. I would submit that the events didn't unfold the way you feel they did (and I have asked a couple questions out of curiosity). But who knows? None of us were there, unless you are Kelani or Jeff Ricketts.


But here is why I DON'T believe it happened as you maintain.

Mumma was one of the absolute catalysts in getting ASA to eliminate college players this summer. He was involved with committees at the National level, he lobbied hard to get the change, and he was part of why it happened. AND he plans to participate in Premier, which doesn't allow college players. He may send a team to Gold Nats, too.

When you consider that he would have been absolutely LOADED this summer bringing back Ricketts and Allard, and would have been everyone's choice to repeat, plus maybe win Premier TOO, it seems inconsistent with what you allege. A guy who was just in it for himself and who had the top player in the country would NOT work hard to change the rules to make that player ineligible.

Mumma did, apparently because he thought it was for the betterment of the game. From where I sit, that is not action consistent with what you allege.

We've probably worn this out. I know I don;t have much more to add. Please take the last word, and good luck to you and your daughter this season.

Regards,

Scott

[whystealthem]

Like I said before, maybe it's the parents fault. Most of these kids are just along for the ride. Maybe the kid wanted to stay with her team, but mommy and daddy said no. I know you have to defend them, I understand that. Thank you for the well wish, because she will need it in our organization. We have our own problems, as everyone can see on another thread.

[anonlooker]

Like I said before, maybe it's the parents fault. Most of these kids are just along for the ride. Maybe the kid wanted to stay with her team, but mommy and daddy said no. I know you have to defend them, I understand that. Thank you for the well wish, because she will need it in our organization. We have our own problems, as everyone can see on another thread.

Which thread?

Sorry, but all the sleaze media coverage of the Woods' Family Debacle has me hooked!