Tournament Format questions

[The Farm]

Coaches/Parents,

We are trying to figure out the final # of fields we need to designate for SB (skinned infield) and for youth BB (grass infield). A lot of this depends on what type of tournament formats we use and time limits.

If you would, I'd like to know your opinion on a few questions. And please feel free to add as much information as you would like.

1. Favorite Sanctioned Tournament & Why if you wouldn't mind saying:
ASA
NSA
USSSA
AAU
Other

2. Favorite format:
Pool Play, 2 games, advance to single elimination, 3 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 3 games, advance to single elimination, 4 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 2 games, advance to double elimination, 4 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 3 games, advance to double elimination, 5 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 4 games, advance to single elimination, 5 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 4 games, advance to double elimination, 6 guaranteed games
Straight Pool Play, 4 guaranteed games
Straight Pool Play, 5 guaranteed games
Other (Please explain)

3. Time limit:
1:15
1:30
1:45
No Time Limit (full 7 innings)

4. Tie Breaker or Drop Dead (Pool Play):
International Tie Breaker after time has expired
Or
No new inning begins after time limit with a drop dead end after an additional: 10 or: 15 minutes

5. How many of each do you anticipate your team playing in throughout the summer?
Saturday - Sunday Tournament
Friday - Sunday tournament
Thursday - Sunday tournament
5 or more days (I assume these would be a Nat'l or World Series event)

6. How many Indoor tournaments do you anticipate your team playing in throughout the fall/winter?

If you would, please include what age group your opinion represents.

For those who take the time to answer these questions, I really appreciate it. If you don't feel comfortable making your comments public, please PM me. The more information and opinions we can gather now, the better we feel we can make your experience at The Farm.

Thanks,

Randy
The Farm

[slapperdad]

Sanctioning body....who cares, they all have their quirks. Don't get in bed with a single sanctioning body. I've seen how that's played out in Columbus

Format, I always liked NSA's 2 pool into double elimination. Though playing a what if game for the championship SUCKS, regardless of which side of it you're on.

I also like 3 pool games into a single elimination, though it sucks to start elimination at 8:00 on Sunday morning, then going home.

Pick your poison, they both have their pros and cons.

1:15 time limit is enough to play a game in most instances. Finish the inning. Schedule them every 1:30.

We'll play seven straight weeks after high school season is over ending most likely at a nationals somewhere, hopefully ASA/USA. At this point, I have no idea where or what yet. Most of the tournaments we've played the last couple of years are Friday-Sunday. I think this is mainly based on numbers, no one wants to go play 1 game Friday night. Those 6:00 starts are tough on folks who work and/or have to drive.

Indoor, it's tough to get a crew together, as a team we will play/played in 2 this winter. The 2:15am games at Sport Zone have grown tiresome, at least for me. It was fun once in a while when they were 12. I think as they get older you reach a point of diminishing returns. I understand it's numbers driven, but showing up in the middle of the night to face a team playing up an age group in many cases ain't doing anyone any good, other than the facility

We are 16U.

Upon further review and a good night's sleep, I had a couple of items to add. Adds are in bold.

[BigPappy]

Coaches/Parents,

We are trying to figure out the final # of fields we need to designate for SB (skinned infield) and for youth BB (grass infield). A lot of this depends on what type of tournament formats we use and time limits.

If you would, I'd like to know your opinion on a few questions. And please feel free to add as much information as you would like.

1. Favorite Sanctioned Tournament & Why if you wouldn't mind saying:
ASA
NSA
USSSA
AAU
Other

2. Favorite format:
Pool Play, 2 games, advance to single elimination, 3 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 3 games, advance to single elimination, 4 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 2 games, advance to double elimination, 4 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 3 games, advance to double elimination, 5 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 4 games, advance to single elimination, 5 guaranteed games
Pool Play, 4 games, advance to double elimination, 6 guaranteed games
Straight Pool Play, 4 guaranteed games
Straight Pool Play, 5 guaranteed games
Other (Please explain)

3. Time limit:
1:15
1:30
1:45
No Time Limit (full 7 innings)

4. Tie Breaker or Drop Dead (Pool Play):
International Tie Breaker after time has expired
Or
No new inning begins after time limit with a drop dead end after an additional: 10 or: 15 minutes

5. How many of each do you anticipate your team playing in throughout the summer?
Saturday - Sunday Tournament
Friday - Sunday tournament
Thursday - Sunday tournament
5 or more days (I assume these would be a Nat'l or World Series event)

6. How many Indoor tournaments do you anticipate your team playing in throughout the fall/winter?

If you would, please include what age group your opinion represents.

For those who take the time to answer these questions, I really appreciate it. If you don't feel comfortable making your comments public, please PM me. The more information and opinions we can gather now, the better we feel we can make your experience at The Farm.

Thanks,

Randy
The Farm

If I was spending 6 million on a project, I would have had all these questions answered in my business plan. You have a lot of work to do and a lot to learn in 7 weeks in time for your ground breaking. Its a tough business to crack, good luck. I would have hired a consultant if you don't have expertise in an area. Sounds like softball is the after thought and that baseball being the priority. I will say that if you treat softball as 2nd tier, you will be in trouble from the outset.

Have you talked with the State directors?
Have reached out to Judy at Sportzone? May or may not help, but have you called?
Have you been to the Dome or Sportzone doing market research on how they run their tournaments?
I would hire someone on staff that has at least a working knowledge of fastpitch. Doesnt sound like that is the case.

[snoop]

Pappy,
You make a few good points, but take is easy! Atleast they are asking, looks like they have a good idea of most tournaments! Just want to know what we like! This place should be good for Indiana! Age group will answer alot of questions! Older, go ASA and get someone who knows the college coaches! Younger, let them play and have lots of shirts and stuff! Don't lock in on one sanctioning body, they all can work for you! Do a ton of SOFTBALL!! The girls can make you alot of $$$$ also! Let me know if the Farm needs help

[The Farm]

If I was spending 6 million on a project, I would have had all these questions answered in my business plan. You have a lot of work to do and a lot to learn in 7 weeks in time for your ground breaking. Its a tough business to crack, good luck. I would have hired a consultant if you don't have expertise in an area. Sounds like softball is the after thought and that baseball being the priority. I will say that if you treat softball as 2nd tier, you will be in trouble from the outset.

Have you talked with the State directors?
Have reached out to Judy at Sportzone? May or may not help, but have you called?
Have you been to the Dome or Sportzone doing market research on how they run their tournaments?
I would hire someone on staff that has at least a working knowledge of fastpitch. Doesnt sound like that is the case.

Well, that wasn't exactly the response I was hoping for.

To answer your questions though,

Yes we have spoken extensively with a couple state directors. We have their input/support/commitment and have used that input when developing our business plan.

No, I have not, nor will I, contact Judy at Sportzone. I'm sure she wouldn't want to give another facility info that will possibly take away from what she has built in Indy.

Yes, I have been to both facilities and have watched many games at both.

These questions are all answered in our business plan. I simply wanted to get your opinion. I feel that your opinion, as a coach or player or parent, carries more weight than any of the state directors or instructors or experts that we do already have on staff or are consulting with. You are the one paying the entry fees and bringing your team to the tournaments. And as one of the people whose butt is on the line for the $6 mil, I simply wanted to ask the questions and get your feedback. I didn’t have to. I could just build it without any concern for what you want or think, but I feel we will have a much better product for the end user, YOU, when it is all said and done.

As for your statement about softball being an afterthought and baseball being a priority, absolutely not. Softball has been a priority for our group from day one. We have worked very hard at gathering information, making contacts and developing a plan that we hope will be successful. Will we screw some things up, probably? But we will learn from our mistakes and get better.

Thanks,
Randy
The Farm

SlapperDad – Thank you for your input. Very much appreciated!!!

[The Farm]

Pappy,
You make a few good points, but take is easy! Atleast they are asking, looks like they have a good idea of most tournaments! Just want to know what we like! This place should be good for Indiana! Age group will answer alot of questions! Older, go ASA and get someone who knows the college coaches! Younger, let them play and have lots of shirts and stuff! Don't lock in on one sanctioning body, they all can work for you! Do a ton of SOFTBALL!! The girls can make you alot of $$$$ also! Let me know if the Farm needs help

Snoop, thanks for the response. I would hope that your response and that of Slapperdad are more typical of the info, and welcome, we will receive here. Our group is trying to build something with The Farm that will be great for Indiana FP softball. I would really like to be able to come to Hey Bucket, post a question or comment and be able to receive some informed information. I know there are a lot of people who come here and who really care about the game. For the record, I am one of those people who really cares about the game and wants to do everything I can to improve it. My DD is a Jr in HS and wants to continue playing at the next level.

Again, thanks for the response.

Randy
The Farm

[Laces_Out]

Thank you for going to your target audience and asking good questions. As I am a person in the Madison County area, who drives all over creation for softball, I welcome the opportunity to see a high powered, impressive venue, closer to home.
1. Sanctioning: ASA (would like to see more), NSA. These we play with qualifying in mind. Tournaments with other sanctions are usually convienent dates and locations to fill a schedule.
2. Format: We look for the most games for the $. Min of 4 gg. I don't have an overwhelming preference here as long as there are 4 games min.
3. Time limit: I dislike them all be/c softball and baseball were never meant to be determined by a clock, but I also understand the necessity. 1 hour is terrible. 1:20 or 1:30 is my vote.
4. After time limit: International Tie Breaker and finish the inning. Drop dead or reverting to previous inning encourages the type of play that spoils the integrity of the sport just for a "win" in the book.
5. Tournaments in the summer starting in June - 6 or 7 (we are doing a summer structure of 2 weekends on, 1 weekend off this year). 1 week long Nat'l. Depending on the organization, 4 or 5 in fall outside.
6. 2 or 3 indoor winter tournaments.
My opinion is the reflection of a long time. Currently involved through more than 1 age group.

[The Farm]

Laces,

You are welcome and thank you for the detailed reply.

Totally agree with you on the time limits. I hated it with my boys and now I hate it with my daughter. I don't really even like the international tie breaker, but I guess in a tournament format it's a must to keep things somewhat on schedule. At least through pool play. Elimination rounds should be played until someone wins outright. IMO

Thanks again,
Randy

[smokenmirrors86]

Here goes:

1) If you want to be THE destination you better do USSSA, NSA, and ASA and a SHOWCASE (get affiliation with the coaches association for instant cred). Pick only one and you eliminate your appeal in a couple of years. Older teams need to play ASA, but you'll have a tough time selling them to the younger age groups.
2) Double elimination, minimum 4 games. You want competitive teams and they want double elim.
3) You might consider 1:15 for pool, 1:30 for bracket, whatever fits for the size of draw you want. Just remember, nobody wants timed games, but often the biggest complaint about tournaments is that they are never on schedule. Parents expect weather delays, but if the sun is out and games on 2 of the fields are running 30 and 60 minutes behind, folks get antsy and will think twice about coming back. Gotta keep things on schedule!
3) International tie breaker, never drop dead.
4) Days depends on the size of the draw again. Everybody wants to sleep in their own beds, but Sat/Sun probably means smaller draws, same teams every week. Lots of teams and variety make teams want to come back, so you almost have to play Fri.
5) Indoor, good luck. Some teams will just not do them and some do them all. Try Invitationals. Prove the viability/stats of your indoor facility and give a sanctioning body tournament berth to get teams out.

DD is in her final yr of 18U and we have been around FP a long time. My suggestion is to not miss out on isuues equally important as formats, etc. Gotta have 6 diamonds to be an elite facility. You want to be THE destination, make sure your restrooms are clean and ventilitated all day long, make sure your concession stand is staffed from open to close, have a good PA system, have some kind of equipment vendor at each tournament. Make sure you provide shade in as many places as possible (If players and families cannot get out of the sun, they are going to leave and spend elsewhere). You must have an employee work with the TD at all times (remember that these are your customers and TD's don't always care about you customers).

[The Farm]

Here goes:

1) If you want to be THE destination you better do USSSA, NSA, and ASA and a SHOWCASE (get affiliation with the coaches association for instant cred). Pick only one and you eliminate your appeal in a couple of years. Older teams need to play ASA, but you'll have a tough time selling them to the younger age groups.
2) Double elimination, minimum 4 games. You want competitive teams and they want double elim.
3) You might consider 1:15 for pool, 1:30 for bracket, whatever fits for the size of draw you want. Just remember, nobody wants timed games, but often the biggest complaint about tournaments is that they are never on schedule. Parents expect weather delays, but if the sun is out and games on 2 of the fields are running 30 and 60 minutes behind, folks get antsy and will think twice about coming back. Gotta keep things on schedule!
3) International tie breaker, never drop dead.
4) Days depends on the size of the draw again. Everybody wants to sleep in their own beds, but Sat/Sun probably means smaller draws, same teams every week. Lots of teams and variety make teams want to come back, so you almost have to play Fri.
5) Indoor, good luck. Some teams will just not do them and some do them all. Try Invitationals. Prove the viability/stats of your indoor facility and give a sanctioning body tournament berth to get teams out.

DD is in her final yr of 18U and we have been around FP a long time. My suggestion is to not miss out on isuues equally important as formats, etc. Gotta have 6 diamonds to be an elite facility. You want to be THE destination, make sure your restrooms are clean and ventilitated all day long, make sure your concession stand is staffed from open to close, have a good PA system, have some kind of equipment vendor at each tournament. Make sure you provide shade in as many places as possible (If players and families cannot get out of the sun, they are going to leave and spend elsewhere). You must have an employee work with the TD at all times (remember that these are your customers and TD's don't always care about you customers).

smokenmirrors86, great screen name!!!

You brought up a point that I honestly had not thought about, affiliations with Coaches association. That is something I will get on right away.

The indoor tournaments have been something we’ve spent a great deal of time talking about. Personally, I hate them from a parent’s standpoint, but it does seem like a lot of teams go to them and I do see how they COULD be used to get ready for the HS season or Travel. Basically just used to knock the cob webs off. So I’ll be the guy drinking coffee by the gallon if you happen to come to one we are running.

As far as the TD is concerned and working with the facility/teams, at this point we are planning on hiring a full time TD in both SB and BB so that shouldn’t ever be an issue. At least if it is, it will only be an issue once, with that TD.

You hit on a lot of other good points as well. Thanks for your input!!!

Randy
The Farm