Illegal Sub or Batting Out of Order

[coachE]

This happened back in Utah. The coach turned in a lineup with a DP and Flex (Flex id'd and listed in the 10 spot). First time through the order, the flex comes to the plate (yes, all 10 batted). 3rd out ground out so no issue, but had she reached base and we appealed, what would the ruling be? Illegal player? Out of Order?

BTW, during the at bat a runner scored on a wild pitch. I assumed that if we appealed there, the leadoff hitter would have come up and assume the count, and the run would still have scored. Was ths correct?

[SoCalASABlue]

Speaking ASA:

7-2-D1: If the batting out of order is discovered while the incorrect batter is at bat, the correct batter must take the batter's position and assume the balls and strikes count. Any runner advanced and runs scored while the incorrect batter was at bat shall be legal. There is no penalty whether discovered by the offense or defense while the incorrect batter is at bat.

7-2-D2: If the batting out of order is discovered after the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat AND BEFORE a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter or before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory, the player who should have batted is out, any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs stand.

If you had appealed the incorrect batter after she made the 3rd out, my interpretation of the 7-2-D2 would be that the run that scored is nullified IF THE INCORRECT BATTER WAS AT THE PLATE WHEN THE RUN SCORED ON THE WILD PITCH. If the run scored before she came to bat, the run is legal.

As for the illegal sub, you could argue that the incorrect batter must now take the place of the original leadoff batter and the opposing coach is now batting 9...but I doubt the umpire would make the opposing manager do that. I think the PU would probably give the manager a warning and tell both sides that we're moving forward with the original lineups.

[coachE]

Speaking ASA:

If you had appealed the incorrect batter after she made the 3rd out, my interpretation of the 7-2-D2 would be that the run that scored is nullified IF THE INCORRECT BATTER WAS AT THE PLATE WHEN THE RUN SCORED ON THE WILD PITCH. If the run scored before she came to bat, the run is legal.

I thought about that, but under 7-2-D1 if we had appealed during the at bat the run would have counted. I can't imagine that by waiting until after the completed at-bat it would then be nullified.

[DurfWerzel]

You weren't by chance playing at a Triple Crown tournament in Utah? If you were, TC in the past has been a little different than ASA by allowing what they call an EP. With that rule, you can actually bat 10.

[coachE]

It was TC, but the lineup listed DP and Flex, not EP.

[SoCalASABlue]

From your response, then, the run scored while the incorrect batter was at the plate. Therefore, you should have appealed under 7-2-D2 after the incorrect batter completed her at-bat.

Of course, based on DuffWerzel's post and your response to that post, it may have been a case of "make sure you read the tournament rules before you step on the field."

[PDad]

If you had appealed the incorrect batter after she made the 3rd out, my interpretation of the 7-2-D2 would be that the run that scored is nullified IF THE INCORRECT BATTER WAS AT THE PLATE WHEN THE RUN SCORED ON THE WILD PITCH. If the run scored before she came to bat, the run is legal.

I don't see how you can nullify something that occurred on a pitch prior to the last one...

As for the illegal sub, you could argue that the incorrect batter must now take the place of the original leadoff batter and the opposing coach is now batting 9...but I doubt the umpire would make the opposing manager do that. I think the PU would probably give the manager a warning and tell both sides that we're moving forward with the original lineups.

The Flex can only bat in the DP's spot in the order, so it depends on whether the DP was at the top of the batting order or not. Seems like it would be an unreported sub if the DP was in the first spot.

[Jalamander]

what would the ruling be? Illegal player? Out of Order?

I'm going to disagree with others who said this is a BOO. A BOO is when one of the other nine players in the lineup bats out of order. The FLEX player is in the tenth position and is not scheduled to bat. This cannot be a BOO.

Had you appealed. Speaking ASA, Illegal player.
Rule 4-6-F says illegal players include: (2) Illegal Batter. Placing the “FLEX” player in one of the first nine positions in the batting order for someone other than the original DP.
The FLEX player was not in the batting lineup, so it can’t be a BOO. The FLEX player is then classified as an unreported substitute. Not only being an unreported substitute, but also an illegal player based upon the above noted rule. The FLEX player is disqualified. The lead-off batter for the next inning should be batter #2.

3rd out ground out so no issue, but had she reached base and we appealed

Speaking ASA. You’re a nice guy. Had you appealed, during her at-bat or after the out, the player would have been disqualified. Because you did not appeal, she can continue to play.

BTW, during the at bat a runner scored on a wild pitch. I assumed that if we appealed there, the leadoff hitter would have come up and assume the count, and the run would still have scored. Was ths correct?

Speaking ASA. You are correct. Rule 4-6-C(1) Effect: Player is disqualified and all action stands.
But again, remember, this is an unreported substitute. That means the leadoff batter comes in as a starter re-entry or another legal substitute.

[wadeintothem]

I leave u trip to you guys, but as a point of clarification for ASA... Flex batting for anyone other than the DP (in this case Flex is batting for batter #1) is covered by its own rule outside of the BOO rules and that is 4-7-F-2.

The Flex is DQ'd and then replaced with a legal substitute and then the sub rules (which are fairly lenient) apply. So if you appeal after the wild pitch, we are going to DQ the Flex (bench her for the game) and put a legal available sub and the run counts.

Forget about the BOO rules. This is its own animal. I dont have a lot of time but would offer that. For more answers to potential what ifs go to ASA 4-6-C

[wadeintothem]

obviously me and jalamander were typing at the same time.. Jalamander is correct and this is not BOO.