it was bad this weekend, I want 1/2 umpire pay

[Iluvblue]

It started off as i was watching the HS playoffs. In the 1st inning of the section finals, the home plate umpire YELLS out as he walks away from behind the plate, "Illegal pitch!" Next half inning he does the same exact thing to the other team. He does this just as the pitcher starts her windup....both pitchers stop in midstride.

This time I yell down to him that you dont yell it out like that. He actually turns to me ( a fan watching the game) and says, "You call it when you see it.

Im down the left field line about 45- 50 feet from the umpire in the field. i am familiar with him so i yell out to him, hey blue, make sure in between innings you go explain to your partner how it works before he hurts some pitcher. Next half inning he does same thing again. 3 times in 1-1/2 innings.

In between that inning I see the blues talking. Next inning he calls another IP. This time he does it the correct way. Pathetic to have a blue in the section finals not know how to call that.



It got much better at our games.

Saturday night, 1st base umpire calls "Illegal Pitch!" on my pitcher..... exactly the same way the HS pitcher did the night before. He screams it out loud and starts walking into the field of play just as my pitcher was starting her motion. I calmly walk up to plate umpire and ask him if he can go instruct his partner to do it the correct way as I would hate to see a pitcher stop halfway through and get hurt. He does, no problem, all is good, we move on.

Later in game, runner at 1st, ball hit to second, my runner interferes with her, he calls interference but he leaves runner at 2nd and calls out the runner at 1st.


Sunday. It is 104 and we played a great game that went 9 or 10 innings, 2hours and 10 minutes, so i know we were all hot and tired and the guy behind the plate was really struggling with the heat. Other team messes up and tries to use a CR for a pitcher or catcher (I dont remember which one, but this kid was already used as a CR for the other position. Umpires let it happen, and only because I caught it did it get fixed.

I take out a pitcher and catcher in 6th inning, re-enter them to hit, then re-enter my pitcher and catcher that entered in the 6th. Opposing team doesnt understand what I did and umpire doesnt just tell them we are fine lets move on. I had to explain it all.


next game... this is the worst, and I do not say this lightly, WORST officiated game I have ever been involved in. I am not talking outs, balls strikes, safe calls, I am talking about allowing a coach to do crap that is incorrect, and only because I caught it did it get fixed.


We are in ASA rules. the batter listed in the 10 spot batted and puts down a sac bunt. i call them on it and we get it fixed. batting out of order, runner returns to 1st, batter was out. next batter in lineup bats. In third inning pitcher is removed. that same kid bats in next half of inning. She steals 2nd and gets hurt. Then coach says he is going ot use a couresy runner for this pitcher (kid at 2nd). Umpire allows it, i have to go out to let him know that kid is no longer pitching. Oh, i forgot one thing... this team only has 10 players on their lineup card, so they have no players on bench as they are using a flex. I am not even aware of them having 10 players. Then the coach says the player is injured, like he gets to just use someone to run for her. They do a straight sub. i am not paying attention to who is subs are, but after this happened, in between innings my scorekeeper is asking me about what happened.

they used the kid that batted out of order, THE FLEX to sub for the number 3 hitter in the lineup that was not the DP. I didnt catch it until after the inning. But at this point I am disgusted. The home plate blue was basically in no control of this game. The opposing coach was just doing whatever he wanted with his lineup and home blue wasnt even checking.

Now the only question I have is what should have happened to the player and coach? is this an illegal substitution which results in player and coach ejection?

the base umpire is EXCELLENT and I felt bad for him that he was stuck in all this. it was not his fault that the other guy was not doing his job. Field umpire apologizes after the game, but it didnt change what had happened. this game was chaos from the start, and I was not happy that I had to also umpire and coach at the same time.




Edit:

i found it, the player that batted in the 3 spot that was listed as the flex should have been tossed from the game as an ILLEGAL BATTER.


As always, every weekend there is something to learn out there.

[wadeintothem]

In that tourney we lost 4 umpires to the heat and 1 noob who turns her head on the pitch and took a pitch to the side of the head - a total of 5 down; so I'm not sure how much got all changed - but as I result I didnt get to go over to Arnaiz and play there on Sun - I got to stay at the 10's at regional.

Its been awhile since I worked 10's and I actually had a great time. A few ohhs and ahhs but no big trouble. Was really fun. Some of those girls can play so good for 10!!! Even the championship game, everyone had a good time. Very cute fun kids and decent coaches.

Sounds like you had some isues - as for me, I had a lot of fun and a great weekend - a little on the warm side.

Shoulda been a good crew over there with you mixed with rooks - at least people you mostly knew? I can't recall who all was where after all the changes got made... but hey at least you earned your keep .

I'm at work and just scanning your post - not reading it close enough to diagnose whats up - but seems to me it definately builds character.

What we do is we have our own association site and when there are rules issues, we post them and talk about them - so that hopefully people learn from it. When I get a good chance to read closely, I'll see if there is enough there to clearly define it and use it for learning. I have 4 rules issues I need to bring out that I saw screwed up and want to address to the umps - so I'll take a look at your B.O.O.s etc later.

Your team looked much better this weekend.

[2bucketdad]

I'll bet the Blue's in your area are just lining up to work games that you are coaching or attending. lol

[Iluvblue]

Wade,

I think the UIC over at Arnaiz was in the field. Excellent umpire, he was stuck in the middle so to speak. Tough spot for him to be in.

[mgkblue]

We are in ASA rules. the batter listed in the 10 spot batted and puts down a sac bunt. i call them on it and we get it fixed. batting out of order, runner returns to 1st, batter was out. next batter in lineup bats.

This is not a batting out of order situation as the flex (number 10 spot on the line up card is not entitled to bat. What you have is an illegal substitution, assuming the player listed in the number one slot on the line-up card is not the DP.

If it is the DP then you would have on unreported substitute.

[Iluvblue]

i found it, the player that batted in the 3 spot that was listed as the flex should have been tossed from the game as an ILLEGAL BATTER.



According to the rule book, if the flex bats for someone other than the DP, she is an Illegal batter. I looked it up yesterday and posted such as stated above.

[wadeintothem]

OK so I have some time.

It started off as i was watching the HS playoffs. In the 1st inning of the section finals, the home plate umpire YELLS out as he walks away from behind the plate, "Illegal pitch!" Next half inning he does the same exact thing to the other team. He does this just as the pitcher starts her windup....both pitchers stop in midstride.

This time I yell down to him that you dont yell it out like that. He actually turns to me ( a fan watching the game) and says, "You call it when you see it.

Im down the left field line about 45- 50 feet from the umpire in the field. i am familiar with him so i yell out to him, hey blue, make sure in between innings you go explain to your partner how it works before he hurts some pitcher. Next half inning he does same thing again. 3 times in 1-1/2 innings.

In between that inning I see the blues talking. Next inning he calls another IP. This time he does it the correct way. Pathetic to have a blue in the section finals not know how to call that.

Can you tell me which game?

Next game... this is the worst, and I do not say this lightly, WORST officiated game I have ever been involved in. I am not talking outs, balls strikes, safe calls, I am talking about allowing a coach to do crap that is incorrect, and only because I caught it did it get fixed.


We are in ASA rules. the batter listed in the 10 spot batted and puts down a sac bunt. i call them on it and we get it fixed. batting out of order, runner returns to 1st, batter was out.

Presuming that you mean the flex batted for someone other than the DP - This is an illegal batter and governed by 4-3 d & l. This would be your job to catch - not the PU's. If actually reported to the umpire we can prevent it/try to prevent it, but this matter is your job.

next batter in lineup bats. In third inning pitcher is removed. that same kid bats in next half of inning. She steals 2nd and gets hurt. Then coach says he is going ot use a courtesy runner for this pitcher (kid at 2nd). Umpire allows it, i have to go out to let him know that kid is no longer pitching. Oh, i forgot one thing... this team only has 10 players on their lineup card, so they have no players on bench as they are using a flex. I am not even aware of them having 10 players. Then the coach says the player is injured, like he gets to just use someone to run for her. They do a straight sub. i am not paying attention to who is subs are, but after this happened, in between innings my scorekeeper is asking me about what happened.

Your situation is not clear because it uses terms like pitcher. With 10 players on a team using a flex/dp - that doesnt matter. There would be no c/rs. All that matters is who the DP is and who the flex is. The can switch around defensively and even play defense at the same time.

To determine if there was any violation here, you would need to lay that out. Flex can sub for DP and the team would just go to 9 players and that would be a legal sub.

they used the kid that batted out of order, THE FLEX to sub for the number 3 hitter in the lineup that was not the DP. I didnt catch it until after the inning. But at this point I am disgusted. The home plate blue was basically in no control of this game. The opposing coach was just doing whatever he wanted with his lineup and home blue wasnt even checking.

It is YOUR JOB to catch that and protest that. It is not PU's job to catch that. As I said, if reported, we cant TRY to prevent it - but BOO is an appeal by you and illegal sub/batter/player is a protest by you. These are your jobs, not PU's.

This is not to say that I dont believe PU was dicked up because obviously they need to open a book and I'll be addressing Flex/DP on our message board.

But you should be thanking this umpire for being screwed up.. it gives you an opportunity to train your scorekeeper. She/he needs to get into the rule book to be able to help your team. The scorekeepers entire existance on the planet... only purpose in life is to catch this is a timely manner and let you know, before it becomes permenant and in the books and not protestable or appealable.

If this was nats or a qualifier, you made a horrible and potentially costly mistake.

Now the only question I have is what should have happened to the player and coach? is this an illegal substitution which results in player and coach ejection?

What should have happened is it should have been prevented as preventative umpiring (if reported to us) or properly protested by you if not reported.
An illegal batter/sub still in the game is disqualified.


On close read -- I'd have to say you did not earn 1/2 the umpires pay because you didnt even do your job, let alone PU's job. You have a person designated to help you do your job - you need to get them up to speed. Some stuff can be handled while a player is in the game still.. other stuff, once even a single pitch is thrown, youre too late.

And that could be very costly to your team.

Work on it.. when you get your job down, we'll talk about 1/2 umpire pay.

[Iluvblue]

HS game was Oakdale vs bear River on Friday at 5pm. It was a Sacramento umpire crew.



When the Flex batted from the 10 spot, i did catch it. Didnt expect umpire to catch, knew it was my job and did so. No problems. Except this player should have been ejected, she was not.


I think you got a little confused on the next part wade.

The player that was batting in the 3 spot was listed as the pitcher. They tried to run for her using a CR, only problem was she was no longer the pitcher of record. They removed her in the previous half inning. So the Flex/dp has nothing to do with this. What they did is enter the FLEX in for the kid that was the number 3 batter and she was NOT THE DP. I thought they were making a straight sub (with a different player), only umpire never told me what they were doing. I never dreamed a coach would be so blatant/dumb to enter the flex as a sub when she was already in the game. I assumed the umpire knew what was happening. My scorekeeper caught it and asked me what they were doing.

When a coach goes to an umpire and says , I am entering number 43 for number 13, what the heck are your umpires looking at? Why do they pull out the lineup card? Dont they mark who is goin gto do what, so when a coach says hey, i am going to use number 13 as a sub for number 43 and number 13 happens to be the flex, wouldnt that be a problem?

And the other problem with this is not ONCE did the umpire com eover and inform my scorekeeper of the changes being made. It was my scorekeeper that did a great job, not a terrible job. It was happening quickly, and like I said, she caught it on her own with no information coming from the umpire. had the umpire came over and told us, no doubt it would have been caught then.

But since the changes were being reported to him, he should have caught it immediately. he didnt.

And by the way my scorekeeper took over half way through the game and was on top of it all. If I werent doing my job, that team would have been able to bring people out of the stands to run. the only thing I failed to do was inform an umpire the player should have been ejected, something I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO.
I reported to the blue in the 2nd inning that the Flex batted for a player that was not the DP. As soon as that was brought to their attention, you think it was my job to inform them she should be ejected? if it is my job, why are they there?

You know who the umpire in the field was, speak to him and see who was and wasnt doing their job:)

[wadeintothem]

HS game was Oakdale vs bear River on Friday at 5pm. It was a Sacramento umpire crew.



When the Flex batted from the 10 spot, i did catch it. Didnt expect umpire to catch, knew it was my job and did so. No problems. Except this player should have been ejected, she was not.

Disqualified and ejected is not the same thing.

I think you got a little confused on the next part wade.

The player that was batting in the 3 spot was listed as the pitcher. They tried to run for her using a CR, only problem was she was no longer the pitcher of record. They removed her in the previous half inning. So the Flex/dp has nothing to do with this. What they did is enter the FLEX in for the kid that was the number 3 batter and she was NOT THE DP. I thought they were making a straight sub (with a different player), only umpire never told me what they were doing. I never dreamed a coach would be so blatant/dumb to enter the flex as a sub when she was already in the game. I assumed the umpire knew what was happening. My scorekeeper caught it and asked me what they were doing.

When a coach goes to an umpire and says , I am entering number 43 for number 13, what the heck are your umpires looking at? Why do they pull out the lineup card? Dont they mark who is goin gto do what, so when a coach says hey, i am going to use number 13 as a sub for number 43 and number 13 happens to be the flex, wouldnt that be a problem?

The umpire should be managing that - no doubt. That is preventative umpiring. Preventing a problem. Protesting/Appealing Illegal Subs/BOO is your job. I'm talking championship play with you as we know thats what we are working on. I'm not making excuses for that umpire. I believe they were confused on the rule and have already addressed this issue on our private message board. After I posted here, I went there.

Usually, especially these types of a tourneys you tell a coach "no you cant do that" and try to work it out. Thats probably what you were expecting. Dont expect that in championship play.

In Championship play, the question is phrased a little different "Coach are you sure you want to do that? That player is not eligible." or something like that. Then if they still do it, its up to you, the offended coach, to protest it or appeal it, depending on the type of play.

So that is what I am trying to make you understand - these are by rule YOUR JOB, not the umpires. They are protests and appeals.

And the other problem with this is not ONCE did the umpire com eover and inform my scorekeeper of the changes being made. It was my scorekeeper that did a great job, not a terrible job. It was happening quickly, and like I said, she caught it on her own with no information coming from the umpire. had the umpire came over and told us, no doubt it would have been caught then.

You should address this right away. Very first time. You have to know the subs. You had the UIC there you say right? This was not an open sub tourney. RR gave the option at PREGAME that if teams wanted to bat their line ups, they could by agreement. I never brought it up in my pregames because I know its wasted breath - no one wants to bat their whole team.. and if they do, the other team doesnt want to allow it and it just wastes time pregame. Usually a coach goes "SHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" because they dont want people to know that

I hate special tourney sub / batting order rules. I liek straight ASA rules or I like free/open subs. I hate when tournies (like yours sometimes do) that invent special c/r rules, etc. It just confuses everything.

But since the changes were being reported to him, he should have caught it immediately. he didnt.

Its your job to catch it. Its our job to TRY to prevent it as an umpire mechanic, not as a rule. The rules clearly state these are handled by protest by the offended coach. If a coach insists on doing it, it goes, and its up to you from then on. So pay attention!

And by the way my scorekeeper took over half way through the game and was on top of it all. If I werent doing my job, that team would have been able to bring people out of the stands to run. the only thing I failed to do was inform an umpire the player should have been ejected, something I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO.

Not ejected, if you caught it and protested it while the player was still in the game.. disqualified. IF the player was not in the game, guess what?

I reported to the blue in the 2nd inning that the Flex batted for a player that was not the DP. As soon as that was brought to their attention, you think it was my job to inform them she should be ejected? if it is my job, why are they there?

You know who the umpire in the field was, speak to him and see who was and wasnt doing their job:)

Its already done association wide - its posted (and I dont know who it was, PM me and I WILL talk with them you can be sure of that).. as I said, I'm not excusing anything - I'm talking championship play for you in this thread.

[GSB]

Now I have seen it all.

Umpires complaining about bad umpires. LOL

It that the pot calling the kettle black? Wasn't that long ago, if you even dared complain that an umpire was doing things incorrectly on this board, you got flamed beyond belief. They were always right, stuck together and tighter then cops. Now they are calling each out out. LOL