Subsitute for Pitcher

[UmpSteve]

~snip~

Actually, I almost did this two nights ago ... My pitcher was struggling and brought F6 in to pitch ... She threw her warm ups and as I reminded her of the situation ( bases loaded 1 out ), I notice

To those watching and maybe not fully in tune with the relationship here ....

This is NOT an umpire (in this situation) reminding the relief pitcher of the game situation; that isn't something done at ANY reasonable level, and shouldn't be done at ANY LEVEL AT ALL, because ....

This is a coach (in this situation) coaching his team. That is what coaches do, not what umpires are supposed to do.

I always chuckle when umpires post about what is never done or should never be done when it is something that is done all the time. I could not tell you how many times, when making a change, that the umpire walks out to the circle and tells the new P that exact information, outs, runners, etc.

And that is why it bears repeating; because so many do exactly what they shouldn't do. Maybe one of the rec-ballers that do will read this and realize why it shouldn't be done.

Let me know the next time you see this happen at a college game, live or TV. Simply never done by those that know what their job is (and what isn't).

[UmpSteve]

Sorry I didn't know we were only talking College games. It has happened at ASA Nationals on down throughout the years. Never knew it was a forbidden practice since it seemed to occur with regularity.

We weren't talking about only college games. That is the best example I can give you of "top of the trade" umpires, those that would know it is not to be done. I suppose it could have happened at a younger age ASA National, where less experienced umpires may work; but can equally guarantee that if observed by the UIC, it was part of their evaluation to not do it again.

I can pretty much guarantee it hasn't happened at PGF High School Division Nationals, either, based on the qualifications of that group, too. Haven't worked the 16U there, so less confident of that group without possible reservations.

[GIMNEPIWO]

~snip~

Actually, I almost did this two nights ago ... My pitcher was struggling and brought F6 in to pitch ... She threw her warm ups and as I reminded her of the situation ( bases loaded 1 out ), I notice

To those watching and maybe not fully in tune with the relationship here ....

This is NOT an umpire (in this situation) reminding the relief pitcher of the game situation; that isn't something done at ANY reasonable level, and shouldn't be done at ANY LEVEL AT ALL, because ....

This is a coach (in this situation) coaching his team. That is what coaches do, not what umpires are supposed to do.

I suppose I should mention whether it is me typing as a coach, fan or umpire to keep things clear ... ... So tonite, WHILE COACHING, I did this exact thing ... Same pitcher change, she threw fine pre game but in her warm up pitches just didn't have it ... I sent her back to F6 and re-entered a previous pitcher ...

[Crabby_Bob]

Sorry I didn't know we were only talking College games. It has happened at ASA Nationals on down throughout the years. Never knew it was a forbidden practice since it seemed to occur with regularity.

It's so common that coaches say, "Hey Blue! Are you going to tell her the situation?"

[GoKorea]

Sorry I didn't know we were only talking College games. It has happened at ASA Nationals on down throughout the years. Never knew it was a forbidden practice since it seemed to occur with regularity.

It's so common that coaches say, "Hey Blue! Are you going to tell her the situation?"

I have never heard this before. We are suppose only give the count here, the rest is up to the coach, which is why it supposed me the early this week when my partner did this twice. I forgot to mention it to him during our post game.

[MTR]

Sorry I didn't know we were only talking College games. It has happened at ASA Nationals on down throughout the years. Never knew it was a forbidden practice since it seemed to occur with regularity.

Unfortunately, this is what you get from local officials who are expected to officiate a game based on the players, not the game or rules.

The minute an umpire forgets to remind the defense of the game situation and there is confusion and it "costs" the defense, the complaint will be that it is the umpire's fault the pitcher didn't know this or that. Same with the offense. When a substitute comes into bat or run for another player, the umpire shouldn't provide a quick recap of the situation. Same reasoning. Umpires should let the coaches instruct players, not the umpires.

Umpires at all levels are routinely reminded they are neither coaches or announcers. Just because you've seen it at a national doesn't mean much since in many circumstances, the local association UIC isn't the one sending the umpire, or you are in an area where locals are being used and that person may not be much more than a local legend that has never worked outside his/her area.

I know, as a fact, that in some areas, many umpires stop working ASA because they don't get sent away after X number of years of working local ball. Some believe that longevity means reward, forget performance. In some areas, including mine, if you are not qualified, you are not going away. About a decade ago, the Regional staff in my area was called on the carpet because there were some umpires being sent away and were not worth a damn. Well, shit rolls downhill and the Regional UIC was shocked to find that the area from where the umpires in question had come were not approved by the UIC, but sent by district commissioners.

[Bretman]

Do I ever see umpires inform new pitchers of the game situation. Yes, I see it a lot.

Is this an approved or taught mechanic that they are supposed to be doing? NO!

I see umpires doing things they're not supposed to be doing all the time. It doesn't mean that it's right. Have you ever seen an umpire: Point to first base when a walk is issued; Scream "FOUL BALL!" when the batter knocks one straight back over the backstop; Flash the count every pitch when he's the base umpire; Comment on the pitch location by saying, "High/low/inside/outside", or by using a sweeping hand gesture away from the plate?

A pitcher has a set of eyes and a brain and usually more than one coach. Why would you expect the umpire to inform her of something that she can see for herself or her coach should be telling her?

[jonriv]

Do I ever see umpires inform new pitchers of the game situation. Yes, I see it a lot.

Is this an approved or taught mechanic that they are supposed to be doing? NO!

I see umpires doing things they're not supposed to be doing all the time. It doesn't mean that it's right. Have you ever seen an umpire: Point to first base when a walk is issued; Scream "FOUL BALL!" when the batter knocks one straight back over the backstop; Flash the count every pitch when he's the base umpire; Comment on the pitch location by saying, "High/low/inside/outside", or by using a sweeping hand gesture away from the plate?

A pitcher has a set of eyes and a brain and usually more than one coach. Why would you expect the umpire to inform her of something that she can see for herself or her coach should be telling her?

Not sure why any of these things are wrong???? especially at younger ages.

I understand the concept of trying to be "above the game" but I have always apreciated umpires that were not ony loud and decisive, but explained their calls with either voice or gestures. I think it helps the girls understand what is going on better and certainly quiets the parents down. IMO the umpires are part of the education process of the players and should be there to help teach as well(in this case rules, field procedures etc..... The earlier they learn these things the better. Coaches who scream and yell are no help either- between inning talks with umpires by the coach and then explaining what happened to the players(and the parents) is a great teaching moment. In my home town, the HS Football coaches wife has informal "meeting" with the Moms to go over films from previous games. They bring in guest referees and coaches to explain what is happening on the films (all at someone's very eleborate home theater) Knowledge is power- wish more TB coaches would take the time to explain what is going on to the parents

[MTR]

What a load of crap. You always preach about the way things should be and you are constantly shown how that is not reality and yet you deny it. How come every time when someone posts what they have experienced you always dismiss it? I have been to ASA Nationals for 10+ years and have experienced almost everything described by others that you dismiss as not happening. Now it is because they are using local umpires that don't know better.. Funny at the opening ceremonies when they introduce the blues they are from all over the US. I guess the events I have been to are just not the norm in your textbook world.

I guess you are right, they are not the norm, and BTW, it isn't my textbook, but mechanics developed by people with much more experience than you and I.

I tell you what is supposed to occur and how the umpires are trained. I cannot help it if you have umpires who choose to ignore their training or don't bother getting the proper training to start. As I have noted below to Jonriv, you want umpires to be part of your league programs and do what you want, that's fine, but if you see it outside your league, I would question the umpire's credentials. That is not saying the individual may not be a good umpire, just not following the prescribed mechanics. They are there for a reason, most of which it to avoid any possible perception of partiality.

An umpire telling the UIC that any action you took was because "that is they way they do it at home" may get the umpire an early ticket home from a national. And yes, I've seen an umpire in the locker room at HOF Stadium get chewed up and spit out by the UIC because that was his explanation for an application that was way off book.

Not sure why any of these things are wrong???? especially at younger ages.

Because it is the coaches' job.

I understand the concept of trying to be "above the game" but I have always apreciated umpires that were not ony loud and decisive, but explained their calls with either voice or gestures. I think it helps the girls understand what is going on better and certainly quiets the parents down. IMO the umpires are part of the education process of the players and should be there to help teach as well(in this case rules, field procedures etc..... The earlier they learn these things the better. Coaches who scream and yell are no help either- between inning talks with umpires by the coach and then explaining what happened to the players(and the parents) is a great teaching moment. In my home town, the HS Football coaches wife has informal "meeting" with the Moms to go over films from previous games. They bring in guest referees and coaches to explain what is happening on the films (all at someone's very eleborate home theater) Knowledge is power- wish more TB coaches would take the time to explain what is going on to the parents

It is not a matter of being "above the game", but a non-partisan involved in the game. If you want your league umpires to be part of the education process, that is fine assuming they are your league umpires. For that matter, many UICs would be more than happy to converse with the coaches and help them out, prior to the season. Many HS associations do just that with "play days" where the umpires are quite open with the coaches in helping them understand why certain things can be done or are against the rules. I always opened any umpire clinic, state or otherwise, to anyone interested. However, rarely had a coach take me up on the open door policy. However, once you start keeping score, that umpire must detach him/herself from the teams.

The concept of an umpire being a whole separate part of the game is not new and in most cases, expected. That make me wonder why so many people think that every aspect of the game is about the player? Coaches, parents, league, etc. sure, there priority is the player. The umpire is the sole part of the game that shouldn't be about anything BUT the game. The umpire's job is to officiate a sporting contest by the rules upon which all teams agree to participate. This expectation is one reason I have found over the past 15 years that it is hard to get umpires to work lower age brackets in league play. Umpires are not trained to be coaches, they are trained to be umpires. For that matter, many umpires are not trained to be instructors, either.

[ontheblack]

It is not a matter of being "above the game", but a non-partisan involved in the game. If you want your league umpires to be part of the education process, that is fine assuming they are your league umpires. For that matter, many UICs would be more than happy to converse with the coaches and help them out, prior to the season. Many HS associations do just that with "play days" where the umpires are quite open with the coaches in helping them understand why certain things can be done or are against the rules. I always opened any umpire clinic, state or otherwise, to anyone interested. However, rarely had a coach take me up on the open door policy. However, once you start keeping score, that umpire must detach him/herself from the teams.

The concept of an umpire being a whole separate part of the game is not new and in most cases, expected. That make me wonder why so many people think that every aspect of the game is about the player? Coaches, parents, league, etc. sure, there priority is the player. The umpire is the sole part of the game that shouldn't be about anything BUT the game. The umpire's job is to officiate a sporting contest by the rules upon which all teams agree to participate. This expectation is one reason I have found over the past 15 years that it is hard to get umpires to work lower age brackets in league play. Umpires are not trained to be coaches, they are trained to be umpires. For that matter, many umpires are not trained to be instructors, either.

I agree with this, but at least where I am in So Cal, I have seen the same umpires work ASA rec, HS and various travel tournaments (ASA and TCS) and I frequently see all of the above miscues. Using hand gestures to indicate why the pitch wasnt a strike was something I dealt with last week. I have also seen it at ASA Nats where the blues are there from all over the country, so I guess my question is, who trains these folks?

The umpire is the sole part of the game that shouldn't be about anything BUT the game. The umpire's job is to officiate a sporting contest by the rules upon which all teams agree to participate.

I would prefer that blue adhere to this philosophy. I certainly dont want them telling my pitcher where they missed unless my catcher asks.