Worth454 Pulled from college game.

[MTR]

DD had a bat pulled from NCAA DIII Regionals last year ... A small piece of tape was coming off the grip in a pre-game inspection ... It was out for the tournament ...

Sure there wasn't anything else? That's a bit ridiculous.

[MTR]

You are arguing that NCAA bats are being banned without failing WSU testing. That of course is ludicrous. As you know manufactures would not accept this process. Especially since first part of your argument would have to be BCT's are inaccurate and everyone knows it..

I'd be willing to bet one of your samwiches that any banned bat has been through a minimum of 2 failing WSU tests, if not three. Any two bit lawyer could beat you easy on this discussion.

No model failures for 2013 means the process is working. Bat's that were a problem are gone. BCT is tuned. The process is working. Manufacturers are not even submitting problem bats to NCAA for play.

For ASA the problem is the bats that NCAA has already been banned. Those ones selling for $800 on ebay. The Nike bat, the UCLA bat, the Hawaii bat, are all still valid in ASA play. They were a clear advantage at the NCAA level. They were removed because they were too hot.

At this point NCAA has done your job. All you have to do is send the bat manufacturers a nice letter. Based on your bat being banned from college play, it is reasonable to conclude that your bat may not remain in the 98mph safety protocol, therefore we believe we should remove your bat from play. Most of the manufacturers have already quit making that brand of bat. They not going to care if you remove these from play.

Also this will save you down the line when you get one of these idiot manufacturers that learns that if they can get a bat banned by NCAA list they could sell it for $400 to ASA parents.

Let's take this to the field level.

The NCAA recognizes ASA's testing, certification and standard levels. They do not have their own set of standards. The NCAA bat list has no science behind it, that it is a list of bats that the manufacturer has provided.

The field testing in NCAA is nothing more than bat compression, the same is done at almost every slowpitch and quite a few JO tournaments, and not just championship play. It isn't like the NCAA has discovered some special machine or that ASA associations do not act in a manner similar to NCAA. Actually, ASA has probably been doing this testing longer than the NCAA. I believe the first time I saw it at a tournament was either 2005 or 2006.

And again, the NCAA doesn't remove a bat because it is "hot", it removes it because the bat's integrity has been compromised. Can that cause the bat to propel the ball at a high level than permitted? Yes and if you want to call that "hot", so be it, but it is one bat, not the model.

BTW, the manufacturers don't stop making a bat simply because ASA or NCAA or NFHS no longer approve of them. There are hundreds of models out there that do not carry the ASA certification. Hell, they are not even presented for testing, but that doesn't mean other organizations will not allow them, or sold in other countries.

[UmpSteve]

yep, too hot for college, but fine for 16U ASA. Oh but wait, NCAA bat testing is about competition.

Man, you are like a parrot on this. AI want a bat cracker??

That bat is NOT yet proven too hot for college; there is a specific contract clause between NCAA and the manufacturers that defines the conditions of too hot for NCAA.

That bat is NOT yet proven too hot for ASA; there is a specific contract clause between ASA and the manufacturers that defines the conditions of too hot for ASA.

In neither case has that bat failed the conditions in the contract. And the two separate contracts do NOT rely on the other for satisfying the conditions. And, frankly, neither one gives a shit if it meets your approval, they are what they are.

You claim to be an intelligent person knowledgeable about much, including legal matters. Why is this concept too difficult for you to grasp?

What happens to a bat that fails a field compression test?

"And, frankly, neither one gives a shit if it meets your approval, they are what they are." Apparently PGF gave a shit. Now we spend loads of money with them.

Assuming you really want an answer, you might try reading this:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/rules/softball/ ... _Final.pdf

The short version is you are confusing a "unit failure", which simply means that bat is pulled from the competition, with a "model failure", which can only be assessed after failing in the WSU labs. Even then, there are legal alternatives before a "strike" is assessed. Unit failures can be caused by neglect, negligence, tampering, rolling, and other issues that are not held as manufacturing issues. Until there are three strikes on model failures due to manufacturing specs, no bat model is considered too hot for the NCAA if the manufacturer submits it.

The ASA agreement also calls for failures to be determined by ASA testing in the WSU labs; and they must also be duplicated several times. They do not and cannot use the NCAA testing results, nor does the NCAA agreement relate to using the ASA test results.

As to your reference to PGF, that is absurd relating to this specific topic. PGF does no bat testing, and has no agreement with manufacturers. PGF relies on NFHS standards, which simply adopt in full the ASA standards, testing specs, and approvals. In that regard, you have painted PGF with the same brush as

yep, too hot for college, but fine for PGF.

I have read it. It is clear. Despite your attempts to complicate things.

Do most field Unit BCT failures result in WSU testing?

Keep in mind it is free to send the bat to WSU. Anyone can request it. Bat manufacturer, the team involved, other users of the bat, competitor teams, competitor bat manufacturers, anyone.

Oh, alright already. I'll give you the answer. All active in use bats that have a field BCT fail are going to WSU. Initially many of the BCT fails went to WSU, as they wanted to make sure the BCT was working. Now BCT is tuned, so any fails are significant and the bat goes to WSU.

Sooo. NCAA is banning bats that have failed ASA safety test 3 times. That is the NCAA system. You have to conclude, despite the rhetoric, the NCAA is banning these bats as they are too hot for NCAA.

You guys can keep them in play if you want. Don't be surprised when they become a decent basis for an injured players legal position against ASA, or PGF, or anyone else allowing these bats.

Now that your response indicates you have actually read the document, you reach an unsupported conclusion. Can you name ONE BAT MODEL that you know for a fact has been banned for failing the WSU lab test three times? There you go, here's your chance to speak with even one specific example that isn't your speculation. Because it will take EVIDENCE to support your often repeated but nonexistant legal position.

Here is what we DO know, the summary list of changes to the NCAA Approved Bat List:
http://sup.arbitersports.com/Groups/104 ... hanges.pdf

Despite pretty substantial BCT testing at NCAA tournament sites, and ALL bats that failed a BCT test being sent to WSU labs, not even ONE strike has been assessed since the start of the 2013 year to any bat currently on the list. That with two updates since the 1/2013 start documenting over-the-winter test results. HELLO!!! Unit failures documented with BCT failures, no model failures documented at WSU labs.

You cannot support your conclusion without even one model failure, can you?? I am sure some ambulance chaser will try to test your conclusion, but using what evidence besides an unsubstantiated conclusion? How is anyone liable for injury without any documented model failures by either NCAA or ASA model testing in WSU labs to allege disregard of player safety?

Come back with facts, not unsubstantiated conclusions or theories.

You are arguing that NCAA bats are being banned without failing WSU testing. That of course is ludicrous. As you know manufactures would not accept this process. Especially since first part of your argument would have to be BCT's are inaccurate and everyone knows it..

I'd be willing to bet one of your samwiches that any banned bat has been through a minimum of 2 failing WSU tests, if not three. Any two bit lawyer could beat you easy on this discussion.

No model failures for 2013 means the process is working. Bat's that were a problem are gone. BCT is tuned. The process is working. Manufacturers are not even submitting problem bats to NCAA for play.

For ASA the problem is the bats that NCAA has already been banned. Those ones selling for $800 on ebay. The Nike bat, the UCLA bat, the Hawaii bat, are all still valid in ASA play. They were a clear advantage at the NCAA level. They were removed because they were too hot.

At this point NCAA has done your job. All you have to do is send the bat manufacturers a nice letter. Based on your bat being banned from college play, it is reasonable to conclude that your bat may not remain in the 98mph safety protocol, therefore we believe we should remove your bat from play. Most of the manufacturers have already quit making that brand of bat. They not going to care if you remove these from play.

Also this will save you down the line when you get one of these idiot manufacturers that learns that if they can get a bat banned by NCAA list they could sell it for $400 to ASA parents.

So you still haven't named one bat you know for a fact has failed three strikes. Still unstubstantiated conclusions, not one fact.

NCAA has not banned bats; your false assumption. Manufacturers are in agreement with the process; the only challenge has been a request, and then an exception for Louisville Slugger Xeno series to BCT. Bats have been deleted from the Approved Bat List, but you restate without evidence as banned, still no facts.

Name a bat you KNOW has failed with three strikes. Any bat model this applies to has been banned. Stop assuming, stop acting like your assumption/conclusion a fact. Spin away, but any other answer simply proves you have no legitimate answer.

If you have no factual response, why not just admit it? The facts speak for themselves.

[AlwaysImprove]

So you still haven't named one bat you know for a fact has failed three strikes. Still unstubstantiated conclusions, not one fact.

NCAA has not banned bats; your false assumption. Manufacturers are in agreement with the process; the only challenge has been a request, and then an exception for Louisville Slugger Xeno series to BCT. Bats have been deleted from the Approved Bat List, but you restate without evidence as banned, still no facts.

Name a bat you KNOW has failed with three strikes. Any bat model this applies to has been banned. Stop assuming, stop acting like your assumption/conclusion a fact. Spin away, but any other answer simply proves you have no legitimate answer.

If you have no factual response, why not just admit it? The facts speak for themselves.

Of course the third strike, and removal from the list is not exposed in the way the list is stated. Third strike the bat just disappears.

Here is a question for you. The Nike bat was not hot? The LS from UCLA, not hot? The bat from Florida, not hot? Those are still valid in ASA play. Argue those bats away. Not hot? Whatever. Good luck proving there are no concerns.

And yes, I would then follow with the Phoenix (had 2 strike disappeared), the LS model that went through with 2 strikes and is now gone. The 454 reload when it is gone from NCAA list.

Coincidence is that you call bigdawgbatrolling and ask which bat you should buy for him to roll, and he gives you those exact same models. Or better yet. Buy a 454 reload. Send it to him for breaking in. Send it to WSU and report back. PM me, I will happily cover the cost.

Even for a competitive guy like Candrea, the bat situation was out of hand. Which is why he pushed, and other coaches were wise enough to push for their removal.

[jonriv]

The Phenix was never on the NCAA approved list and therefore never had two strikes. Generally mfg will not submit bats that had strikes from the previous years. They tend also not to submit bats they no longer mfg. I do agree with AI that it is somewhat troubling that ASA and PGF continue to allow "hot" bats

[GIMNEPIWO]

DD had a bat pulled from NCAA DIII Regionals last year ... A small piece of tape was coming off the grip in a pre-game inspection ... It was out for the tournament ...

Sure there wasn't anything else? That's a bit ridiculous.

I thought it was ridiculous too ( over zealous Official me thinks ) .... But yes ... Spoke to the tourny director myself who said she would get it back after the tourny ... I had her other bat ( identical ) in the truck, but because it had not gone through the pre tourny approval process it couldn't be used ... Her bad , she should have had two bats approved ...

[MTR]

DD had a bat pulled from NCAA DIII Regionals last year ... A small piece of tape was coming off the grip in a pre-game inspection ... It was out for the tournament ...

Sure there wasn't anything else? That's a bit ridiculous.

I thought it was ridiculous too ( over zealous Official me thinks ) .... But yes ... Spoke to the tourny director myself who said she would get it back after the tourney

Did you request a rule citation? I doubt there is one.

... I had her other bat ( identical ) in the truck, but because it had not gone through the pre tourny approval process it couldn't be used ... Her bad , she should have had two bats approved ...

Again, ridiculous. Bats do break or become damaged. There is no reason a bat should not be allowed to be inspected and approved prior to use even after the tournament has started.

[MTR]

Of course the third strike, and removal from the list is not exposed in the way the list is stated. Third strike the bat just disappears.

Here is a question for you. The Nike bat was not hot? The LS from UCLA, not hot? The bat from Florida, not hot? Those are still valid in ASA play. Argue those bats away. Not hot? Whatever. Good luck proving there are no concerns.

And yes, I would then follow with the Phoenix (had 2 strike disappeared), the LS model that went through with 2 strikes and is now gone. The 454 reload when it is gone from NCAA list.

Coincidence is that you call bigdawgbatrolling and ask which bat you should buy for him to roll, and he gives you those exact same models. Or better yet. Buy a 454 reload. Send it to him for breaking in. Send it to WSU and report back. PM me, I will happily cover the cost.

Even for a competitive guy like Candrea, the bat situation was out of hand. Which is why he pushed, and other coaches were wise enough to push for their removal.

Steve, did you get that cracker yet?

So, after all this inane jibber-jabber, the conclusion can only mean that the players/teams ARE cheating and when they get caught, it is ASAs fault because the legitimate bats are still being allowed for use in their tournaments.

And on top of that, you voluntarily admit you associate with an individual who enables cheating.

[AlwaysImprove]

Of course the third strike, and removal from the list is not exposed in the way the list is stated. Third strike the bat just disappears.

Here is a question for you. The Nike bat was not hot? The LS from UCLA, not hot? The bat from Florida, not hot? Those are still valid in ASA play. Argue those bats away. Not hot? Whatever. Good luck proving there are no concerns.

And yes, I would then follow with the Phoenix (had 2 strike disappeared), the LS model that went through with 2 strikes and is now gone. The 454 reload when it is gone from NCAA list.

Coincidence is that you call bigdawgbatrolling and ask which bat you should buy for him to roll, and he gives you those exact same models. Or better yet. Buy a 454 reload. Send it to him for breaking in. Send it to WSU and report back. PM me, I will happily cover the cost.

Even for a competitive guy like Candrea, the bat situation was out of hand. Which is why he pushed, and other coaches were wise enough to push for their removal.

Steve, did you get that cracker yet?

So, after all this inane jibber-jabber, the conclusion can only mean that the players/teams ARE cheating and when they get caught, it is ASAs fault because the legitimate bats are still being allowed for use in their tournaments.

And on top of that, you voluntarily admit you associate with an individual who enables cheating.

Actually my daughter does not hit, she is a pitcher. No need to cheat. When she did hit, we did not use any of these bats.

Are you arguing Nike bat was not hot? NCAA created a system to rid itself of those bats correct? Even your fanboy, jonriv, is asking.

Now skip the cracker and go get me a samwich.

[jonriv]

Of course the third strike, and removal from the list is not exposed in the way the list is stated. Third strike the bat just disappears.

Here is a question for you. The Nike bat was not hot? The LS from UCLA, not hot? The bat from Florida, not hot? Those are still valid in ASA play. Argue those bats away. Not hot? Whatever. Good luck proving there are no concerns.

And yes, I would then follow with the Phoenix (had 2 strike disappeared), the LS model that went through with 2 strikes and is now gone. The 454 reload when it is gone from NCAA list.

Coincidence is that you call bigdawgbatrolling and ask which bat you should buy for him to roll, and he gives you those exact same models. Or better yet. Buy a 454 reload. Send it to him for breaking in. Send it to WSU and report back. PM me, I will happily cover the cost.

Even for a competitive guy like Candrea, the bat situation was out of hand. Which is why he pushed, and other coaches were wise enough to push for their removal.

Steve, did you get that cracker yet?

So, after all this inane jibber-jabber, the conclusion can only mean that the players/teams ARE cheating and when they get caught, it is ASAs fault because the legitimate bats are still being allowed for use in their tournaments.

And on top of that, you voluntarily admit you associate with an individual who enables cheating.

Actually my daughter does not hit, she is a pitcher. No need to cheat. When she did hit, we did not use any of these bats.

Are you arguing Nike bat was not hot? NCAA created a system to rid itself of those bats correct? Even your fanboy, jonriv, is asking.

Now skip the cracker and go get me a samwich.

Fanboy??????

The NCAA instituted the new rule to rid it of "hot bats" especially old hot bats. It gave the bat mfg a great way to pull bats(by not submitting) as well as pushing product. The main push was for competive reasons-safety as a side benefit