Dropped 3rd

[MTR]

MTR:
Would the play at first be considered a "force play" if not a "force out" and how long has it been considered that way?

Softball Official Rules (1936) Rule 20
Sec. 5 Force-Out. A force-out can be made only when a base runner legally loses the right to the base he occupies by reason of the batsman becoming a base runner and he is thereby forced to advance.

Synonymous. The term "force" has applied to the runner being forced off a base. The force out obviously is the result of a force play. Since a BR is never forced, how could s/he be put out on a force play?

Rule from 75 years ago is very similar to the existing rule.

[GIMNEPIWO]

MTR:
Would the play at first be considered a "force play" if not a "force out" and how long has it been considered that way?

Softball Official Rules (1936) Rule 20
Sec. 5 Force-Out. A force-out can be made only when a base runner legally loses the right to the base he occupies by reason of the batsman becoming a base runner and he is thereby forced to advance.

Synonymous. The term "force" has applied to the runner being forced off a base. The force out obviously is the result of a force play. Since a BR is never forced, how could s/he be put out on a force play?

Rule from 75 years ago is very similar to the existing rule.

In everyones defense ... When we are coached and coaching, especially at the younger ages ... It is often easier to describe things in terms that players, parents etc. will understand ... And tell everyone it's a force out rather than a live ball appeal, etc. ... Or as a Blue on a play on a BR at first base ... a play on a runner returning to a base on a caught fly ball etc. ... Example: ( In the parking lot after the game ) " Hey Blue, that was a good call on that live ball appeal on R1 returning to 2nd on the caught fly ball by F9 in the 2nd inning " ... Does not happen as often as " Hey Blue, good call on the force out on the pop up at at 2nd in the 2nd " ... I'm sure I would just say thanks to either one and keep walking ...

[tcannizzo]

Kinda like a foul tip that went all the way to the backstop.

[Battle]

MTR:
Would the play at first be considered a "force play" if not a "force out" and how long has it been considered that way?

Softball Official Rules (1936) Rule 20
Sec. 5 Force-Out. A force-out can be made only when a base runner legally loses the right to the base he occupies by reason of the batsman becoming a base runner and he is thereby forced to advance.

Synonymous. The term "force" has applied to the runner being forced off a base. The force out obviously is the result of a force play. Since a BR is never forced, how could s/he be put out on a force play?

Rule from 75 years ago is very similar to the existing rule.

Under “Playing rules and points of emphasis index”....Page 224-225 (I believe)...Starting with “Base Calls”...What does it say?...Under that...Under “The Force Play”, what does the 1st sentence say in your rule book? Is there a difference in “force play” and “force out”? How is all this in that section explained away if 1st base is not a force play? I understand that it says there cannot be a force if you are not leaving another base by definition and I agree that if you are the batter runner then you are not leaving a base. It's kind of confusing.

[HugoTafurst]

[quote="GIMNEPIWO
(Snip)
In everyones defense ... When we are coached and coaching, especially at the younger ages ... It is often easier to describe things in terms that players, parents etc. will understand ... And tell everyone it's a force out rather than a live ball appeal, etc. ... Or as a Blue on a play on a BR at first base ... a play on a runner returning to a base on a caught fly ball etc. ... Example: ( In the parking lot after the game ) " Hey Blue, that was a good call on that live ball appeal on R1 returning to 2nd on the caught fly ball by F9 in the 2nd inning " ... Does not happen as often as " Hey Blue, good call on the force out on the pop up at at 2nd in the 2nd " ... I'm sure I would just say thanks to either one and keep walking ...[/quote]

FWIW, I have no problem with people mistaking the play on the BR at first with a force and except when I'm trying to be a wise guy, won't bother bringing it up except for educational purposes. The effect is the same.

HOWEVER I'm not as lenient regarding a play on a runner returning to a base on a caught fly ball. Due to the fact that that out can effect scoring, it is more important that coaches learn that from the git-go.....

[AlwaysImprove]

MTR:
Would the play at first be considered a "force play" if not a "force out" and how long has it been considered that way?

Softball Official Rules (1936) Rule 20
Sec. 5 Force-Out. A force-out can be made only when a base runner legally loses the right to the base he occupies by reason of the batsman becoming a base runner and he is thereby forced to advance.

Synonymous. The term "force" has applied to the runner being forced off a base. The force out obviously is the result of a force play. Since a BR is never forced, how could s/he be put out on a force play?

Rule from 75 years ago is very similar to the existing rule.

MTR is correct. While the whole batter, becomes batter-runner, not just another runner, and force out vs put-out seems overly complex, these constructs exists in all the rule books, including MLB.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_play

They are there for a reason and used to separate actions that happen at those points on the field.

From MLB Rule book Definitions:

A FORCE PLAY is play in which a runner legally losses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first the play at second was a force out, making two outs and the ball then had been returned to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case no run would score.
Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get in time and is out. Three outs. If in the umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

FWIW, on appeals plays. This thread references the official Jaska/Roder handbook for the rules of baseball endorsed by MLB umpires.
http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=415588.0
Definitely indicates that stepping on the bag a second time, would not be considered an appeal play. Also, looking at the umpire and stepping on the bag a second time would not be an appeal. Tagging the runner would be considered an appeal play.

Also, much to my chagrin, having a coach go absolutely insane in the dugout while first baseman touches the base over and over again should not be counted as an appeal play.

[MTR]

MTR:
Would the play at first be considered a "force play" if not a "force out" and how long has it been considered that way?

Softball Official Rules (1936) Rule 20
Sec. 5 Force-Out. A force-out can be made only when a base runner legally loses the right to the base he occupies by reason of the batsman becoming a base runner and he is thereby forced to advance.

Synonymous. The term "force" has applied to the runner being forced off a base. The force out obviously is the result of a force play. Since a BR is never forced, how could s/he be put out on a force play?

Rule from 75 years ago is very similar to the existing rule.

Under “Playing rules and points of emphasis index”....Page 224-225 (I believe)...Starting with “Base Calls”...What does it say?...Under that...Under “The Force Play”, what does the 1st sentence say in your rule book? Is there a difference in “force play” and “force out”? How is all this in that section explained away if 1st base is not a force play? I understand that it says there cannot be a force if you are not leaving another base by definition and I agree that if you are the batter runner then you are not leaving a base. It's kind of confusing.

No idea what rule book to which you are referring, it certainly isn't a 2011 Umpire or Team Edition.

[Battle]

No idea what rule book to which you are referring, it certainly isn't a 2011 Umpire or Team Edition.

That's why I asked "how long has it been that way" because I think I have the 2006. Does your book not have that section? It's the very last chapter. The pages might not be accurate hence the "I believe". I am going by the actual page number at the bottom of the page.

Here's a link to the 2005 and mine is pretty much just like it...Read pages 224-225 completely because it makes several references to a force play at 1st although it never says anything about a force out but I would have to assume that it would be relative. I know this is not a 2011 but was this not a valid book in 2005? Has that part changed?

http://www.azsoftball.org/misc/2006/Mis ... lebook.pdf

[MTR]

No idea what rule book to which you are referring, it certainly isn't a 2011 Umpire or Team Edition.

That's why I asked "how long has it been that way" because I think I have the 2006. Does your book not have that section? It's the very last chapter. The pages might not be accurate hence the "I believe". I am going by the actual page number at the bottom of the page.

Here's a link to the 2005 and mine is pretty much just like it...Read pages 224-225 completely because it makes several references to a force play at 1st although it never says anything about a force out but I would have to assume that it would be relative. I know this is not a 2011 but was this not a valid book in 2005? Has that part changed?

http://www.azsoftball.org/misc/2006/Mis ... lebook.pdf

This isn't a rule nor even part of the rule book. It is an umpire manual and discussion on covers and has zero to do with the rules. It is in the manual for the purpose of instructing umpires in the mechanic when covering a play which includes touching the base for an out instead of that which requires a tag of the runner.

[Bretman]

That's why I asked "how long has it been that way" because I think I have the 2006. Does your book not have that section?

The section you're refering to is the ASA umpire manual that appears in the back of the "Umpire Edition" of their rule book. It was totally rewritten three years ago- all completely new text and graphics since 2009.

For what it's worth, the new section on base umpire mechanics that corresponds to the older version refers to "Force Plays/Plays at First/Tag Plays". So it does seem that there was a conscious effort to distinguish a force play and a put out at first base.

Really, the distinction is a technicality of the rules that has no real material effect. For all intents and purposes, they are treated exactly the same. The rules covering them are probably different just because of the way the rule book is organized and written. With respect to offensive players, there are different sections describing how a player can be put out based on their status- either that of a batter, a batter-runner or a runner. Forced runners can always retreat back to the base they started on, while a batter-runner cannot.

I think this was best summed up by Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott in the Star Trek novel "Spock Must Die". Faced with distinguishing a tachyon-based duplicate from that of the real Commander Spock, Scotty surmised that, "A difference which makes no difference is no difference".

Or, in this case...it walks like a duck, it talks like a duck but, technically...it ain't a duck!