Illegal pitch for taking signs behind the pitcher's plate?

[PDad]

This started on another thread (viewtopic.php?p=187390#p187390). I'd like to hear what the esteemed umpires have to say.

I watched an entire game (in which DD's team was NOT involved) where every pitch thrown (by an admittedly fine pitcher from a very well know OC organization) was an illegal pitch...the pitcher was taking the signal from the catcher standing behind the pitcher's plate on every pitch...yet neither blue ever called IP and are probably still blissfully unaware of the requirement...at least crack the rule book to know what constitutes a legal pitch if you're going to be a PU...better to call it now especially when it's something so simple to correct...JMHO...

She took the signal with both feet off the pitchers plate,

I understood that from your first post - and it doesn't matter if she did.

Of course it matters if she did - otherwise why is it in the rule book using the verb "shall"?

While on the pitcher's plate, the pitcher shall take the signal or appear to take a signal with the hands separated. The ball must remain in either the glove or the pitching hand.

Is this rule about where the pitcher has to take a signal or what they have to do while on the pitcher's plate? The explanation(s) I've gotten on this rule is the latter and that it requires them to at least appear to take a signal (i.e. pause) to keep them from 1) carrying momentum from stepping onto the pitcher's plate into their delivery and 2) quick-pitching. I've only seen it called in those instances.

[Comp]

The rule does not require them to take the signal on the pitching plate. It specifically says, or appear to take a signal. It is just a means of making the pitcher pause after stepping onto the pitching plate to as you said, keep her from quick pitching.

I too have seen alot of pitchers around here that take the signal behind, step on and then immediatly bring hands together. While technically illegal, we have been instructed that as long as they arent quick pitching to let it go. I do approach the coaches in these situations and explain to them the pitchers are technically illegal and sooner or later they will run into an umpire that is going to call it.

[SoCalASABlue]

I don't doubt that umpires are being told to ignore it.

The preliminaries were stressed in every clinic I've attended this year. We were told NOT to ignore it since it was still an illegal pitch and you're putting the offensive team at a disadvantage if you don't call it.

So next time the slapper comes down in fair territory while striking the ball, I guess technically it's a rule violation but who cares, right? Slapping is hard. Just let them play.

[Imperial SB Dad]

My DD had an umpire tell her specifically to take the signal from behind the pitchers plate a couple of weeks ago. It was in Yuma though so she took it with a grain of salt and did it that game for that ump.

[UmpSteve]

As others have stated, the requirement is that the pitcher pause with hands separated after stepping on the pitcher's plate. There are written case plays and interpretations in NCAA, ASA, and NFHS that pitchers can take signals from anywhere, at anytime, but as long as they pause with hands separated after stepping on, then they have met the requirement. Pitchers are not required to take signals, and may, in fact, not get one. Or she may get numerous signals from different people in different locations at different times, perhaps as an intentional misdirect to keep the real signals from being stolen.

The bottom line is simple. Take the signal anywhere, any time, or not. Immaterial. But, must/shall/mandatory to stop or pause with hands separated after stepping on the pitcher's plate (an action that simulates the stop to take the signal). No stop is an illegal pitch.

There are numerous "clinicians" or local UIC's that will suggest one "ticky-tack" rule or another should be ignored; using a personal opinion about the advantage or disadvantage gained or not gained as justification for ignoring it. The result is that too many umpires are never actually taught the full sequence of what must be done, and what cannot be done. But ignoring any rule is ignoring a rule, and that isn't what we are supposed to be doing.

Even if the pitcher doesn't quick-pitch the batter, it is a violation of the rules. One that will ultimately be called an illegal pitch by an umpire who does the job correctly. Yet the umpire doing it correctly is the one that will get the heat. When an umpire chooses to ignore the violation, he isn't doing his job, he isn't teaching the pitcher what is actually required, and is allowing her to gain the advantage of pitching illegally without the appropriate penalty.

[Bretman]

Kind of sad that an umpire would take to a public forum to bash another umpire about a rule when he himself apparently does not understand the rule!

Take your signal from behind the pitcher's plate, in front of it or beside it- doesn't matter. In fact, while you're at it...take two or three- one from the catcher, one from the bench and one from the guy in the hot dog stand! But once you do engage the pitcher's plate, you need to pause with hands separated and either: 1) Take a signal, or; 2) Simulate taking a signal.

Do that and you have legally met the requirements of the rule.

[SoCalASABlue]

Kind of sad that an umpire would take to a public forum to bash another umpire about a rule when he himself apparently does not understand the rule!

Take your signal from behind the pitcher's plate, in front of it or beside it- doesn't matter. In fact, while you're at it...take two or three- one from the catcher, one from the bench and one from the guy in the hot dog stand! But once you do engage the pitcher's plate, you need to pause with hands separated and either: 1) Take a signal, or; 2) Simulate taking a signal.

Do that and you have legally met the requirements of the rule.

Gee - I'm sorry - does it hurt your feelings that even another umpire would admit that not all umpires walk on water?? Maybe if a few of our fellow umpires would lose the Empire State Building-size egos every once in a while and realize there have been rules changes and modifications since softball was invented, there would be no need to vent openly...

If you had read the original thread, I made it very clear that the pitcher was not pausing after taking the signal off the pitcher's plate and was going straight into her delivery without a pause once she placed both feet on the rubber...but of course then your response would probably be "well you didn't see what you saw"...whatever...I just hope when the pitcher IS eventually called for it, it won't be with runners on base leading to a tying or winning run for the other team...

[SoCalASABlue]

And when I stop hearing fellow umpires every year at rules and mechanics clinics happily state their job "is to get outs" rather than being a true unbiased third party, I'll be happy to stay behind the thin light blue line...

[Bretman]

Gee - I'm sorry - does it hurt your feelings that even another umpire would admit that not all umpires walk on water??

HA, HA! It takes a lot more than that to hurt my feelings! And I would be the first to admit that not all umpires are "perfect"- myself included. But then I'm not the one posting public reviews of another umpire's performance.

Maybe if a few of our fellow umpires would lose the Empire State Building-size egos every once in a while and realize there have been rules changes and modifications since softball was invented, there would be no need to vent openly.

When was the rule changed about where the pitcher needs to take her signal?

And, again, it seems that this whole conversation was initiated by you "openly venting" about actions you observed by another umpire.

If you had read the original thread, I made it very clear that the pitcher was not pausing after taking the signal off the pitcher's plate and was going straight into her delivery without a pause once she placed both feet on the rubber...

No, I didn't see the other thread. Was just going by the quotes posted in this one, which did lead me to believe that you were interpreting this the wrong way.

If the OP has taken your quotes out of context to give that false impression, maybe that's who you should have an issue with.

...but of course then your response would probably be "well you didn't see what you saw"...whatever...

Why would I say that? Makes no sense...

And when I stop hearing fellow umpires every year at rules and mechanics clinics happily state their job "is to get outs" rather than being a true unbiased third party, I'll be happy to stay behind the thin light blue line...

Not really sure what that has to do with this topic, but...ummm...okay...

[ontheblack]

I am not an umpire, but I have a dumb question about the definition of a quick pitch.

Here is the example:
Pitcher takes the signal with hands apart and while paused on the rubber. Hitter is doing her thing in the box. Umpire signals to pitcher at which point pitcher immediately puts hands together and quickly pitches the ball. Hitter is not ready, but hasnt called time. Coach screams about a quick pitch.

What is the minimum sequence of events involving pitcher and PU required for a legal pitch?