Is it time to change the rule?

[MTR]

Here is my observation:
Everything about the game has drastically improved over the last 10 -15 years and it is good for the sport. Players are faster, stronger, more athletic and more professional. Universities are building great stadiums and fields and TV coverage is increasing. It is all good.

Umpiring is the only aspect of the game that has not improved IMO. Look at all the embarrassing blown calls, inconsistent strike zones, illegal/no illegal pitch calls that we saw on National TV during the NCAA regionals and World Series this past season.

The inconsistency in the umpire world is glaring.

And you have what experience in umpiring? Personally, while I do not disagree completely with you, I don't believe you have anything, but a one-sided perception. Go figure.

[as the world turns]

Here is my observation:
Everything about the game has drastically improved over the last 10 -15 years and it is good for the sport. Players are faster, stronger, more athletic and more professional. Universities are building great stadiums and fields and TV coverage is increasing. It is all good.

Umpiring is the only aspect of the game that has not improved IMO. Look at all the embarrassing blown calls, inconsistent strike zones, illegal/no illegal pitch calls that we saw on National TV during the NCAA regionals and World Series this past season.

The inconsistency in the umpire world is glaring.

And you have what experience in umpiring? Personally, while I do not disagree completely with you, I don't believe you have anything, but a one-sided perception. Go figure.

Like I said, just my honest opinion on what is wrong with the sport. Umpires cannot even agree on what is an illegal pitch. How many times we have seen on TV where a pitcher gets called for an illegal pitch and the next pitch she does the exact same thing and the illegal pitch does not get called? Either call them all illegal or not. It just does not look good for the sport.

My perception is this, softball is a business, and I am a customer

[PDad]

I really don't think this is about toe dragging, rather, crow hopping 24-30 inches off the rubber and having a full plant and secondary push off the ground with the right leg (for a RH pitcher). It's common. It's done every day. So either call it or state that it is perfectly legal.

I provided a trained umpire's explanation of what is legal and what isn't. I see lots of pitchers use their pivot foot after dragging for support (legal ASA & NFHS), but have rarely seen one that appears to push off again to get closer to the plate (illegal). If you think Bretman's explanation is not accurate, please provide credible evidence to support your position (e.g. case play, official interpretation, umpire training material and/or post(s) by an authority like MTR).

[fasterpitch92701]

I am sure the rubber is, ah, somewhere. And given where she in her motion it's sort of hard to see how this would be anything other than a foot plant and push. As great a pitcher as she is, should upcoming players emulate this... motion? The answer is likely YES, if it's legal and gives you an advantage. If it's not legal...

As previously noted, define it and call it (or not call it). But ambiguity, wandering interpretations, inconsistent application and guessing benefits no one, including upcoming players.

[PDad]

I am sure the rubber is, ah, somewhere. And given where she in her motion it's sort of hard to see how this would be anything other than a foot plant and push. As great a pitcher as she is, should upcoming players emulate this... motion? The answer is likely YES, if it's legal and gives you an advantage. If it's not legal...

As previously noted, define it and call it (or not call it). But ambiguity, wandering interpretations, inconsistent application and guessing benefits no one, including upcoming players.

You can't really tell from a single photo. Here's a video of numerous pitches - http://youtu.be/CBLvQBnawew. Her stride (right) foot is NOT landing closer to home plate due to a second push. It is therefore not a crowhop by Bretman's training.

The orgs have defined it, issued official interpretations and included it in their training. The only thing they haven't done is clarify it enough in their rules so that laypeople can understand it without the supplemental materials and training.

A legitimate gripe is ASA's Participant Manual (Official Rules) isn't sufficient on it's own for its intended users (i.e. players and coaches) to learn the rules as they've been interpreted. ASA issues official interpretations and clarifications on the wording of its rules, but often doesn't follow through by amending the Participant Manual. It's ridiculous that we're playing a game where the participants haven't been provided a clear set of rules.

[AlwaysImprove]

It is going to be hard to call the replant. The rules could be clarified, but still going to be hard to call, based on current definition.

Osterman is a great example of a pitcher that is going to be hard to tell the difference between riding the back foot, and getting some extra push with it. Some of her pitches the dirt appears to be flying forward based on drag. Others it looks like the dirt is flying a bit more sideways. On one it may even fly backwards.

As pointed out previously. I find it a little hard to get excited about pitching issues when you have bats in the 110+ range available in ASA/PGF, yet outlawed as too hot for D1 college's. It has been proven beyond any argument without some on field testing, you have a good number of cheating bats.

[Tyler Durden]

It is going to be hard to call the replant. The rules could be clarified, but still going to be hard to call, based on current definition.

Osterman is a great example of a pitcher that is going to be hard to tell the difference between riding the back foot, and getting some extra push with it. Some of her pitches the dirt appears to be flying forward based on drag. Others it looks like the dirt is flying a bit more sideways. On one it may even fly backwards.

As pointed out previously. I find it a little hard to get excited about pitching issues when you have bats in the 110+ range available in ASA/PGF, yet outlawed as too hot for D1 college's. It has been proven beyond any argument without some on field testing, you have a good number of cheating bats.

If you hijack my thread I'm gonna make you go get me a samwich.

[okla21fan]

I am sure the rubber is, ah, somewhere. And given where she in her motion it's sort of hard to see how this would be anything other than a foot plant and push. As great a pitcher as she is, should upcoming players emulate this... motion? The answer is likely YES, if it's legal and gives you an advantage. If it's not legal...

As previously noted, define it and call it (or not call it). But ambiguity, wandering interpretations, inconsistent application and guessing benefits no one, including upcoming players.

Looks like Cat is wearing a 'Team USA' uni, and those games are played under the ISF ruleset. 'Leaping' in the ISF ruleset is a legal

Sec. 61. LEAPING (FP ONLY).
Leaping is the act of a pitcher that causes him to be airborne on his initial move and push from the pitcher’s plate. The momentum built by the forward movement of the pitcher causes the entire body; including both the pivot and stepping (non-pivot) foot to be in the air at the same time and moving towards home plate. The pitch is completed when the pitcher lands and with a continuous motion delivers the ball to the plate. The pivot foot may push off and/or follow through with this continuous action. Leaping is a legal act.

It also should be noted that this same pitcher when pitching in non ISF play, has altered her delivery to meet the NCAA, NFHS and ASA interpretation of the 'drag-pivot'drag' or 'crow drag'

below is the official clarification from ASA in May of 2012 (which was basically past down from the NCAA earlier that spring. (which is what Brettman and other have explained how umpires are trained concerning this topic.)

http://www.asasoftball.com/umpires/clar ... 12_May.asp

Fast Pitch Pitching Styles

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.

[Sam]

I am sure the rubber is, ah, somewhere. And given where she in her motion it's sort of hard to see how this would be anything other than a foot plant and push. As great a pitcher as she is, should upcoming players emulate this... motion? The answer is likely YES, if it's legal and gives you an advantage. If it's not legal...

As previously noted, define it and call it (or not call it). But ambiguity, wandering interpretations, inconsistent application and guessing benefits no one, including upcoming players.

Looks like Cat is wearing a 'Team USA' uni, and those games are played under the ISF ruleset. 'Leaping' in the ISF ruleset is a legal

Sec. 61. LEAPING (FP ONLY).
Leaping is the act of a pitcher that causes him to be airborne on his initial move and push from the pitcher’s plate. The momentum built by the forward movement of the pitcher causes the entire body; including both the pivot and stepping (non-pivot) foot to be in the air at the same time and moving towards home plate. The pitch is completed when the pitcher lands and with a continuous motion delivers the ball to the plate. The pivot foot may push off and/or follow through with this continuous action. Leaping is a legal act.

It also should be noted that this same pitcher when pitching in non ISF play, has altered her delivery to meet the NCAA, NFHS and ASA interpretation of the 'drag-pivot'drag' or 'crow drag'

below is the official clarification from ASA in May of 2012 (which was basically past down from the NCAA earlier that spring. (which is what Brettman and other have explained how umpires are trained concerning this topic.)

http://www.asasoftball.com/umpires/clar ... 12_May.asp

Fast Pitch Pitching Styles

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.

Noe THAT is the single funniest statement ever made on this subject. Osterman has NEVER thrown without leaping.

[PDad]

below is the official clarification from ASA in May of 2012 (which was basically past down from the NCAA earlier that spring. (which is what Brettman and other have explained how umpires are trained concerning this topic.)

http://www.asasoftball.com/umpires/clarifications_2012_May.asp

Fast Pitch Pitching Styles

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.
...

Thanks for posting this.