Who is worse Bartjr or Joe Bad

[RudeDog]

[ssarge]

Slider201, I'm 60 and I dont care if BJ slept with Ted Williams, he has shown me nothing about softball, and second if you think baseball hitting has anything to do with softball hitting, which is one of the laughable things I see on these posts, then lets get together and I'll throw a few pitches, (thats fast pitch) and lets see what BJ can do, apparently you have nsver seen Lisa Fernandez pitch to Mike Piazza..

So apparently you believe that when Enquist and Candrea SAY that hitting in BB and FP is the same, they are ill-informed? It's one thing to disagree with them - actually having a hitting mechanics-related REASON would be impressive - but to say that their position is "laughable" is. . . . .well, laughable.

You can find C & E's video comments on this subject on the RightView Pro site.

Or I suppose you could attend this year's NFCA meeting, where if the agenda is anything like last year, Don Slaught and Mike Epstein will again present to a very appreciative crowd, explaining WHY the swings are in fact the same.

Or, you could just look at some video of elite hitters in both venues to see that the swing mechanics ARE the same.


As for Bart Jr - perhaps his humor is an acquired taste? I tend to like it, because he keeps the blowhards - including me on occasion - from taking themselves too seriously. But I can certainly see why some might find him to be other than their cup of humor tea.

However, BJ's well documented donation of thousands of dollars of bats and other equipment to needy kids across the country is laudable. In that sense, I hope that we ALL can agree that he has done something very significant for the game.

Scott

[FPdawg]

A men on donations of equiptment to kids is a great thing to do. It would be cool to hear some of BJ's stories about the great experiences he must have expreienced during these bursts of geerosity. Sorry I don't agree BB & FP hitting are close at all, and am willing to have friendly disscution on mechanics of the two,,check out my post, BB hitting vs FP hitting and you'll see some of my points, you don't have to agree, but I have been a softball specialist for over 30 years, and I say I can explain it and give actual used and sucsessfull methods that definatly will show BB & FP hitting tecneaks are not shadow copies, Nobody seems to want and discusse this with me. Generally the ones that say BB & FP same swing are BB coaches I've never heard a pure softball coach say that, well so much for MO.... FPdawg

[ssarge]

It would be cool to hear some of BJ's stories about the great experiences he must have expreienced during these bursts of geerosity.

I sense you're are being sarcastic, which is in fact the very behavior you appear to be criticizing. That aside, fair enough, the donations have been done quietly, and there is no reason that most would know about it. But that they don't know about it is kind of the point, and speaks to one aspect of who BJ is. Perhaps we can agree that not all like his humor? Certainly legitimate, he's a quipster - not for everyone. But there IS more to him than that.

A final point (on BJ), responding to a post earlier in the thread - if BJ DID take a "shot" at a 14 YO girl, I'd be willing to bet he had knowledge that it really wasn't a 14 YO girl, but rather one of the ubiquitous eTeamZ trolls posing as something they were not. A phenomenon all too common to eTeamZ, and one of the reasons some people are now exploring this board.

Sorry I don't agree BB & FP hitting are close at all, and am willing to have friendly disscution on mechanics of the two,,check out my post, BB hitting vs FP hitting and you'll see some of my points, you don't have to agree, but I have been a softball specialist for over 30 years, and I say I can explain it and give actual used and sucsessfull methods that definatly will show BB & FP hitting tecneaks are not shadow copies, Nobody seems to want and discusse this with me.

Because the world has changed dramatically in the past 5 years, and IMO, almost no one thinks there is much left to discuss. This being a rainy Saturday, with nothing much to do, I'll take the bait, though.

The sea-change was underway 5 years ago. Three years ago, when Candrea and Enquist made their pronouncement and heavily endorsed the RightView product, the momentum really gained. There are still islands out there, embracing the legacy FP swing. But increasingly few. And those who are there - you included - are not arguing with me. You are arguing with the National Team coach and several hundred NCAA coaches.

As for the ONE point (not some points) you made in your prevous post - Fernandez K'ing MLB hitters - and you could expand this to include Finch's "This Week in Baseball" segments - I remain unpersuaded. First, the only pitch they throw effectively against male hitters is the riser - see below. Next, the typical MLB hitter has several hundred thousand swings under his belt. All against pitching with a similar release point. Change the release point, and it throws off their eye. And would continue to do so, for a while. Give them a week where they were actually motivated to prepare for the experiment, and the female pitcher would be in danger for her life. Literally. The reaction time is comfortably within the familiar (around 0.4 seconds in either venue) for the MLB hitter. And the dramatically slower closing speed of the softball (70 mph vs 98mph) makes the ball in the hitting zone for - in hitting terms - an astronomically longer time. The margin of error for the hitter is dramatically bigger. Any female pitcher who threw (from 43 feet) against MLB hitters who had a week in the cage / against live FP pitchers to prepare would be incredibly brave. She'd also be risking her life.

Even the best female riseballs are flat or dropping slightly through the hitting zone IF THEY ARE STRIKES (anyone can throw a ball over the backstop - still rising as it crossed the plate, but who cares?). As PROFILE ANGLE video has proven repeatedly and conclusively. See the Sarah Pauly videos as an obvious example of this, but there are many other examples. And NO - NOT ONE - profile-angle video example that has been posted anywhere of a ball rising through the strike zone. Or hopping. It is just like a 100mph FB at the letters in BB. Flat, or a downward trajectory of maybe 1 degree. NO difference. The release point looks different (because it is), and would fool MLB batters for a while. But not for long. They would dial in pretty rapidly if they cared to bother. If it could fool them for long, the submarine specialists such as Chad Bradford would be much more successful than they are.

But even if you don't accept all of that - as I'm reasonably certain you won't - it changes little uunless you can suggest a reasonable alternative. Describe the alternative hitting mechanics that allow hitters to knock Finch's riser all over the park - that are demonstrably better than MLB mechanics - and I promise that I'll study them. Seriously. The POINT of MLB mechanics is that they can be consistently applied against ANY pitch, with any movement, in any location. Allowing the hitter a universal approach to hitting that optimizes the probabilities for success in all situations. Because 0.4 seconds is NOT ENOUGH time to recognize a pitch, then implement a differing mechanical approach based on what the pitch may be. There is only 1/4 of a second to recognize and launch, and that means the launch part of it HAS to be the same in all situations. If that weren't true, MLB hitters would not themselves have virtually identical swings - identical to each other, and identical in terms of basic mechanics against any pitch.

AT any rate, there is probably room for disagreement on this tiopic, though the window appears to be narrowing. Doesn't change that you characterized what I believe about FP hitting - and what Candrea and Enquist believe - as "laughable" in your previous post. And as "not close at all" in your more recent post. Even allowing for the hyperble of which we are all guilty in our online personnas, I believe that is out there a bit.

Generally the ones that say BB & FP same swing are BB coaches I've never heard a pure softball coach say that

Do I need to hand-deliver the Candrea and Enquist video to your house? PLEASE check out the RightView Pro web site and see their comments.

http://www.rightviewpro.com/products/instruction-series (see "Mike ande Sue Intro" near the bottom of the page).


Hell, if you want, eMail me at ssarginson@astound.net and I'll just eMail you back the video clip.


And by all means, present your evidence of dissimilarities between the FP and BB swings at the elite level. Let's talk. But I think you are going to have a difficult time finding video of elite FP hitters in the past 3-4 years whose mechanics are different than those common to MLB. Unless they are slappers. The women aren't as powerful, don't have the repetition under their belt that the older professional BB players do, and so the swings aren't as honed. Same mechanics, though.

If you don't have video of current elite FP hitters, see Siggy's site, or borrow someone's RVP.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/oly ... 71.zebra_s


Cautious regards,

Scott

[mozzy]

gee, Scott, someone told me siggy's site was gone, thanks for setting me straight

[Cannonball]

gee, Scott, someone told me siggy's site was gone, thanks for setting me straight

mozzy, siggy's site is down for the MLB portion of the site.

[FPdawg]

Thanks ssarge for the reply, I honostly I am trying to not be an ass, and bust balls with everything said, and I can see, you are a true veteran on these web chat what ever they call this, this is my first forum ever been on, played and coached SB for more than 30 years, but you are correct I shall appologise for geting all wound up and try to keep it simple stupid, KISS, someone mentioned this earlier to me.. I do totally agree with what you have said, that the basic softball and baseball swing are common to what is seen in MLB come on we all know softball was an adeptation from baseball, and eventually they ended up with bats that basicly reasemble each other at least in shape and minus ratio. Now how can there not be simmilarities in the two diseplins and at times identicle stop frame shots. Now I'm new remember so dont B....Slapp me to hard if I say something that might get eveyones panties in a wadd, and this is just a guess, but every body on ET and I guess here to always are reffering to some video or some quote in a magazine or take a look at this web site, tell me, has anyone here played mens fast pitch at national or international softball, or are we all just butting our bacon on a video, where some body finds a shot of MLB hitter swinging at high pitch, then draws all kinds of weird trapzoidalishus lines to demonstrate his knowlage by then producing another video of MLB hitter now swinging at low inside pitch and saye ah ha see I told you the trapazoidalishus doesn't fit in batter # 2 armpit Most of this crap is just to sell videos to fine folks like you.. Candrea, & Jenny's dad both thank you for the donation and for $5 more they will throw in the Mr Finch windmill wind up machine and the free video on how to spit tabackee in the third base box, LOL I'M honostly sorry I just couldn't pass it up. Look I did see a video on you-tube with finch and a 95 mph collage pitcher he hit the test plate at something like 1300 to 1400 psi on fixed surface the fixed surface appeared to be + or - 1 1/2'' thick plexy with sensors wired to the back surface, Jenny's first pitch exploded the plexy, end of test. I think but you check, you like video, but I think reaction time to Jenny's pitch was just slightly shorter than BB pitcher, they couldn't get her impact pressure but both pitches BB& FP broke the beem so they had velocity numbers to equate. Anyway to ansewr not just BS if you want to compare some video get every at bat in a DI fastpitch game then get every at bat in first 7 ennings of MLG now put up side by side any order you want meaning have # 4 FP batter compared to leedoff batter any way you want go 1,1 2,2 3,3 whatever this will ansewr any questions about identicle swings. now don't pop your cork with a good softball team you should see three batters replicating part of the MLB swing, like I said earlier SB was born of BB. Now dont get me wrong, I think the use of video is a must in hitting and pitching, record your players and show them where they might need some work.I already said this on another post but I'LL do it again. During the pitch the ball does not move on the same plane, the rotation of the ball is not even close, the movement of the ball is not even close, they do not have the same release point this misconception what angle are you talking about, the Good Year Blimp if you get your camera angle right the center fielder has the same release point as Roger Clemmens, to many voodo videos, put somebody on here that has played this game, you sound like a real ball fan you must know a male person over the age of forty, now get them over here and lets talk softball not video vs video, really I'm happy to see that there people like you willin Good g to take a little time and share some knowlage, Im serious, thanks for the comeback, I didnt think for a while nobody wanted to talk to somebody that played not just coached...Ney Year, and lets play ball

[TNSoftballDad]

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but what is JoeBad's website?

[ssarge]

FPdawg:

No need to apologize. We are a long ways from seeing things similarly, but that's what makes a valuable forum.

I will speak only of my own hitting methodology, formulated as a hitting coach for an 18Gold team in California (qualified for Nationals last season; placed about 20 players into college in the past 3 seasons). While I think there are many in a similar position, I don't protend to speak for them. For all I know (for sure) I am the only one.

Nothing has been formulated on ONE video. I literally have a couple thousand videos of MLB and FP hitters. And there is a lot to be gained from studying those. But far more to be gained from on-field experience. Which is probably something we agree upon. In my case, it has been a six year journey through virtually every hitting methodology on the planet. Carefully observing and charting what works best across a broad spectrum (maybe 150 hitters) of varying abilities, experience levels, etc. Both genders, but mostly female FP. Lots of technology utilized, including RVP software for comparison (the WHOLE video, not one frame). And a Setpro swing compuyter which measures reaction time to the 0.000 (and many other variales, including highly accurate bat speed measurements).

I interact with college coaches every weekend, because that is the basic responsibility for Gold coaches. The venue exists to get girls signed. Generalities are only generally true, but the interest - in terms of scholarship players - is speed and power. RH-batting "contact" hitters do not TODAY tend to attract a great deal of attention (or $$$). Obviously, hitting is only one aspect of the game, and if you are an F6 or F8, maybe other factors can compensate. If you are a corner, corner outfielder, and probably a catcher, you will be expected to bring some pop. (And let me hasten to add, there is a place in college softball for any player with solid skills. 950 4-year programs - that requires a lot of players. But a relatively small percentage of those players are receiving significant athletic scholarships. That is the segment I am addressing, but I think mthat is valid, as earning one of those scholarships is the interest of a fairly significant percentage of participants in JO travel softball. And I would add is potentially within the grasp of a great number of those players.)

That describes the experience and antecedent bias that shape my opinion.


To answer your questions:

1) I have no experience with men's FP, other than to watch it on occasion. That is a sport where - at least at elite levels - hitter reaction time CLEARLY is less than in MLB. And far less than in female FP. I can certainly understand why that has influenced your thinking. Quickness is EVERYTHING in the swing. far more important - and different from - bat speed. But it is important that you understand that the MLB swing has been honed for quickness, not bat speed. A typical MLB hitter attains 90mph of tip bat speed. Well below the maximum attainable (that would be demonstrated by elite Men's SP players, who often top 110mph of tip bat speed. In contrast, elite female FP hitters are around 70mph. Swing QUICKNESS - as measured by frames of 30fps video - is similar between MLB hitters and elite female FP hitters. Around 4 - 4.5 frames - 0.5 seconds, give or take). Quickness is EVERYTHING, but contrary to what I believe you are contending, the MLB swing DOES NOT sacrifice it. It accentuates it. I also think you make a mistake when evaluating how long it takes to load - who cares? You can do that when the catcher is throwing the previous pitch back to the pitcher, if you have to. You certainly can do it irrespective to whether you swing, or take the pitch. The only relevant measurement is swing launch to contact.

2) I have seen the Finch segment on Mythbusters, and thought it was a puff piece. I don't see the relevance of the PSI measurement. The surface-to-weight ratio of a softball is different than a baseball, but what does that have to do with the challenge of making contact? A good percentage of elite female hitters don't even wear batting gloves (unlike baseball). And the data was flawed. The piece DID indicate that reaction time was less in FP, but it really isn't. First, it was comparing 70mph to 95mph, which isn't valid - should be 70 to maybe 101, since there are about 3 people in the world at either of those numbers (but lots of MLB guys above 95). And most importantly, the measurement should be from the release point, not the rubber. But who cares? The reaction time is basically comparable. The really important point is closing speed. The softball crosses the plate traveling much slower than the BB, meaning it is in the hitting zone longer. This quite simply gives more margin of error to the hitter.

3) I think the percentage of elite FP hitters attempting to emulate MLB mechanics is far higher than you believe. But I will also agree with the poster on the other thread. Whatever works, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If a hitter can hold the barrel, hit with the handle, and hit .300 in Gold or college, more power to her. But the point of an emphasis on mechanics is to optimize the probability of success. There will always be people who figure out a different way to do it. Anyone who wanted to fix Jim Furyk's golf swing - dramatically different than any other elite golfer on the planet - would have to be insane. he's number 2 in the world, and he isn't going to catch #1 anyway. Clearly, alternatives can work. But IMO, it would be equally insane to EMULATE his swing. There is a reason why - out of millions who picked up a golf club as a youth - enormous similarity exists at the top of the pyramid. That the typical swings look like clones is no accident. It is shaped by trial-and-error among a very broad sample.

4) As for your point on the other thread about the sincerity of Candrea and Enquist in their "conversion" to embrace MLB mechanics - I guess you could talk to them. Both are approachable. Or you could take my word for it, I guess. I've had the opportunity to interact with both of them, and judge them very sincere. I also know girls coached in both programs. The instruction is consistent.

Regards,

Scott