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I thought this was a good read.....

What's on your mind?

by curveballerguy124 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:29 pm

This was posted by Bill Hillhouse from House of pitching it was posted on a different softball discussion website. Since I'm good friends with both Bill and Jason I thought it was a good read. A little backstory Jason and Bill played on the same team years ago so they know each other pretty well. I never played against either even though we were at some of the same tourny's.

"I came across this on Facebook yesterday and thought I'd post it here for you guys. The 'author' is Jason Iuli-Kinsey of San Diego. Jason pitched fastpitch softball from his teens and well into his 30's, he did pitch in the "major" division of men's fastpitch (which is the top "classification") The last 2 or 3 days he's been making some very interesting, thought provoking statements on Facebook about pitching coaching. I've known Jason for 20+ years, we are friendly but not "Friends" we don't send each other Xmas cards or anything. But, he's got a big legion of followers in CA. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this or his opinions, just wanted to share and read your discussion).

'The 4 things we need to stop trying to teach...
1) INTERNAL ROATATION
2) FOREARM FIRE
3) BRUSH CONTACT
4) FOLLOW THROUGHS

PowerhouseMechanics'


Hear me out. I am not saying these things do not exist. What I am saying is, these things are naturally occurring movements within the pitching motion. Teaching pitchers to intentionally create these movements are arbitrary and very confusing. ⠀

Why should we stop teaching I.R? ⠀
First of all, the term in itself is confusing. I don't know why we make it so complicated. I.R, is simply how the joint rotates open and closed, but I digress..IR is one of the most natural things the arm will create. When the arm transfers from back to down, the shoulder joint will naturally open itself. Watching all of these videos of kids trying to "create" IR is causing them to over rotate. Not only are they not able to get back behind the ball on the closure of the joint, its almost impossible to create cuts.⠀

Why should we stop teaching "brush contact"?⠀
Brush contact is a reaction that is a result of how we pull from an open shoulder joint. When the shoulder joint is open, it will pull the shoulders back, placing the elbow behind the ribs. When pulling down the arm, the elbow is already in position to make contact with the hip. When the elbow makes contact with the hip, it will naturally trigger the shoulder joint too close. Too many kids are forcefully driving their elbows into the sides of their body and injuring themselves.⠀

Why should we stop teaching "Forearm Fire"? ⠀
The forearm is activated because the fingers are pulling into the wrist. By not putting attention into the fingers, and putting focus on the contraction of the forearm, creates peeling or rolling the ball off their fingers. Why would we teach kids to let the ball roll off of the fingers? Use the fingers to drive energy through the ball. ⠀

Why should we stop teaching follow throughs? ⠀
This is how "Hello Elbow" started. Pitchers were taught to "intentionally" create a follow through, but follow throughs are not intentional. Follow throughs, are a direct result of how we use the forearm. By teaching kids to intentionally follow through, it also teaches them to bypass the forearm and substitute a bicep pull or even worse, to just push the ball. ⠀

STAY FOCUSED ON MOTIONS THAT ARE INTENTIONAL
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by Blind Assassin » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:54 pm

I've never seen a pitching coach mention any of those 4 items....much less teach them. Seems like a bit to do about nothing.
"I don't look for trouble....trouble looks for me." - Five Finger Death Punch
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by Capone » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:45 pm

Is this terminology you use when you teach curveballerguy? I've seen conversations on hello elbow vs internal rotation but haven't had a pitching coach talk about it like that.
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by curveballerguy124 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:23 pm

Blind Assassin wrote:I've never seen a pitching coach mention any of those 4 items....much less teach them. Seems like a bit to do about nothing.


The reason those comments struck a nerve is almost every TOP pitching instructor in the country and even out of the country, LOL teach at least 2 if not all 4 of the above mentioned mechanics..... Just to name a few, instructors like Amanda Scarborough, Angela & Denny Tinchner, Bill Hillhouse, Mike White(Texas), Cat Osterman, Don Sarno (Rachel Garcia's instructor), Rick Pauly... and the list goes on!!!

On a side note BA, if you have your daughter with a pitching instructor who has never mentioned any of this stuff, then you might wanna do a little research or ask why???
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by curveballerguy124 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:15 pm

Capone wrote:Is this terminology you use when you teach curveballerguy? I've seen conversations on hello elbow vs internal rotation but haven't had a pitching coach talk about it like that.


Brush contact I talk about quite a bit with my pitchers, and IR is the result of correct brush contact. However both need to occur in order to have a proper arm whip. So its important for a pitcher to understand whats happening during the pitching motion. Pitching is a lot about feel so you need to feel whats happening at the point of release thats why understanding BC & IR is important......

As for hello elbow that's a whole different discussion!!!
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by Blind Assassin » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:21 am

curveballerguy124 wrote:
Blind Assassin wrote:I've never seen a pitching coach mention any of those 4 items....much less teach them. Seems like a bit to do about nothing.


The reason those comments struck a nerve is almost every TOP pitching instructor in the country and even out of the country, LOL teach at least 2 if not all 4 of the above mentioned mechanics..... Just to name a few, instructors like Amanda Scarborough, Angela & Denny Tinchner, Bill Hillhouse, Mike White(Texas), Cat Osterman, Don Sarno (Rachel Garcia's instructor), Rick Pauly... and the list goes on!!!

On a side note BA, if you have your daughter with a pitching instructor who has never mentioned any of this stuff, then you might wanna do a little research or ask why???


My kid went to Sarno, Dave Lindsay, and Mike Smith. None ever mentioned these mechanics.
"I don't look for trouble....trouble looks for me." - Five Finger Death Punch
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by curveballerguy124 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:52 am

Blind Assassin wrote:
curveballerguy124 wrote:
Blind Assassin wrote:I've never seen a pitching coach mention any of those 4 items....much less teach them. Seems like a bit to do about nothing.


The reason those comments struck a nerve is almost every TOP pitching instructor in the country and even out of the country, LOL teach at least 2 if not all 4 of the above mentioned mechanics..... Just to name a few, instructors like Amanda Scarborough, Angela & Denny Tinchner, Bill Hillhouse, Mike White(Texas), Cat Osterman, Don Sarno (Rachel Garcia's instructor), Rick Pauly... and the list goes on!!!

On a side note BA, if you have your daughter with a pitching instructor who has never mentioned any of this stuff, then you might wanna do a little research or ask why???


My kid went to Sarno, Dave Lindsay, and Mike Smith. None ever mentioned these mechanics.


Your kid went to all 3......None of them worked for her??

Now, I can't speak on Dave Lindsay but I KNOW Sarno does because about 13 years ago (maybe longer) he worked with the Men's Jr national fastpitch team sort of a pitching camp. That is the first time I had ever heard about brush contact mentioned in that way... I was just spectating not participating for the record.

As for Mike Smith he was a damn good pitcher I never played against him but I saw him play and picked his brain on his change up. One of the best I had ever seen, he probably never used those terms but he definitely taught internal rotation that was how he was ably to throw that nasty change up.
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by Blind Assassin » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:59 am

curveballerguy124 wrote:
Blind Assassin wrote:
curveballerguy124 wrote:
Blind Assassin wrote:I've never seen a pitching coach mention any of those 4 items....much less teach them. Seems like a bit to do about nothing.


The reason those comments struck a nerve is almost every TOP pitching instructor in the country and even out of the country, LOL teach at least 2 if not all 4 of the above mentioned mechanics..... Just to name a few, instructors like Amanda Scarborough, Angela & Denny Tinchner, Bill Hillhouse, Mike White(Texas), Cat Osterman, Don Sarno (Rachel Garcia's instructor), Rick Pauly... and the list goes on!!!

On a side note BA, if you have your daughter with a pitching instructor who has never mentioned any of this stuff, then you might wanna do a little research or ask why???


My kid went to Sarno, Dave Lindsay, and Mike Smith. None ever mentioned these mechanics.


Your kid went to all 3......None of them worked for her??

Now, I can't speak on Dave Lindsay but I KNOW Sarno does because about 13 years ago (maybe longer) he worked with the Men's Jr national fastpitch team sort of a pitching camp. That is the first time I had ever heard about brush contact mentioned in that way... I was just spectating not participating for the record.

As for Mike Smith he was a damn good pitcher I never played against him but I saw him play and picked his brain on his change up. One of the best I had ever seen, he probably never used those terms but he definitely taught internal rotation that was how he was ably to throw that nasty change up.


Actually all of them worked for her. Smith and Lindsay worked mechanics for the rollover drop and we went to Sarno to work on the riseball.
"I don't look for trouble....trouble looks for me." - Five Finger Death Punch
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by Capone » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:44 pm

Did your DD see the three coaches at the same time? if so, did she have issues keeping information straight?
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by Chin Music » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:24 pm

Got to know your audience.
Been teaching pitching and hitting for quite awhile. Played with /against Jason, Sarno, Smith and met curve last year. I have never used any of these exact words/ terms to a lesson. Sure I understand what Jason and curve are saying but explaining these concepts to a kid it must be simplified for retainment with understanding.
It also comes down to opinion. Just because one guy says the wheel needs to be changed others say it still works fine.
Last edited by Chin Music on Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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