Shaved bats in HS play ??

[dodgerblue]

I was told after that weekend that it was altered. No superstition, maybe I should have clarified that.

[absdad]

I was told after that weekend that it was altered. No superstition, maybe I should have clarified that.

Well then maybe it very well was. I'm not doubting your story, just thinking that the whole thing can get out of hand. What happens when one girl who is doing twice a week hitting lessons, suddenly gets on a streak with a new bat, and starts threatening the fence? A jealous parent (we *know* there's none of those in TB ) just has to say a little something to another parent, and next thing you know, everyone is talking about "Suzy" ( ©Sam ) using a rolled, shaved, massaged, and shampooed bat. I don't doubt your story one bit, but a single example based on second or third hand info... I'm sure you can see where that's going. There has to be a way to tell, and if that involves the manufacturers making the bats tamper proof, I'd be all for that.

[CrushersDad]

I wasn't aware that massaging and shampooing a bat was illegal - I had better warn DD!

[Tumblebug]

I don't know how many of you were around when we had wood bats, but we didn't break them very often.....and there were not alternatives.....there were plenty of trees around....and the number of wood bats and competition drove the prices down.

REPORTED injuries may be down....solely because of the lack of knowledge on how to report an injury....or that 95% of them don't result in a trip to the hospital. It doesn't mean pitchers aren't getting pummeled....I saw another one last week....I've seen 6 pitchers hit with batted balls in an elite HS league in a total of 20 games. Three of them had to leave the game.

ASA has the power to reduce the standard down to that of a comparable wood bat. Problem solved.

Fiction in red . . .

...as Tumblebug reverts to the old "liar, liar....pants on fire" argument. Please provide proof that I am lying.

It's not my story, prove it's not fiction . . .

[Skarp]

I agree on the sanctions being harsh. But the problem isn't that the illegal bats are too hot but that they are hotter than expected.

Bingo. Lots of products are inherently dangerous. The issue is whether the users/consumers of those products have sufficient information with which to make intelligent choices.

[ssarge]

ASA Gold NAtionals xray'd all bats and threw out about 1/3 of them. Mailed them home. Of course, some of them were the stealths and CF3 under the old standard. But some were clearly shaved.

To my knowledge, ASA did NOT X-Ray any bats at Gold Nationals. They did perform a simple compression test on all bats, which simulated ball exit speed. I don't know how many bats were tested - at one bat per kid, I would estimate it was probably around 1,000. I personally observed 75-100 being tested, and saw several disallowed.

Close to 150 failed this simple compression test, and were disallowed for the tournament (my estimate from when I saw the bats halued away on the first day of the tournament; see below). The tests obviously spanned all manufacturers. In my observation (personal observation only, no actual data), the DeMarini bats were failing most often.

Tumblebug's company's bats fared well, for whatever that is worth. Although there were few of them there (many of the top Gold teams get bats for free or greatly discounted from their sponsoring manufacturer, and that isn't his business model). But he is very credible on this subject, IMO. He has access to bat test data and design specs which are very closely held. Think nuclear launch code level security. It is ridiculous, actually. But he absolutely knows what he is talking about. I would urge people to listen to him. The fact that he is participating in the discussion speaks volumes.

My own daughter had three bats tested - a Worth Mutant, and 2 Miken Freaks. The later 2 are the bats she uses for college. She uses the lightest SP bat, meaning these are 34/27s, for whatever THAT is worth (actually, I think one might have been a 28).

All three of the bats she took to Nationals were very well used. At least 10,000 swings against dimple balls at 60-65mph. I think one of the bats had over 20,000. And these were all with pretty high bat speed - I am certain the vast majority of these collisions were greater than the 110mph collision speed ASA uses in its F2219 test. I hit with her bats too, sometimes, and I played SP at a pretty high level. These bats had been pounded. The point being, these were not casual collisions, and these were very well worn bats. About as "whippy" as composite bats are going to get, I would think, without serious mechanical assistance..

All her bats passed.

Leading me to believe that 15% (or so) of the bats failing is a REALLY high number. I would not (and AM NOT) making any accusation. But IMO,15% is such a high number that an investigation of willful non-compliance is warranted. From where I sit, any such investigation should span manufacturers, teams, and individual players.


I saw no effort by ASA to track non-compliance by manufacturer or team. That would be valuable data in my mind. But I don't think it was tracked. This is, after all, ASA. The bats were merely confiscated, and later hauled to a pick-up point on a golf cart (the bats were vertically placed in 3 large trash container sized bins. If they were mailed home as stated, that is something I didn't know about. My understanding was that the player or coach merely picked up the bats after the tournament. I can't say for sure, because our team had none confiscated.


But again, the testing was compression testing only. There was no X-Ray of bats.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

I agree on the sanctions being harsh. But the problem isn't that the illegal bats are too hot but that they are hotter than expected.

I'd state it differently. I think there are two problems. One is the safety, and you have accurately captured the concern there. The illegal bats are not as incrementally hotter as people believe, but enough so that they produce an unanticipated result. Spot on.

But the second problem is willful cheating. And I DON'T think it is limited to the player level.

In my mind, this is a big deal. To me, this is different than the "cheating" that goes on when a pitcher crow hops. THAT is visible, can be pointed out to an umpire, and generally brought to light.

That just isn't true with illegal bats.

Not much you can do about it. You can challenge a bat on the other team (college play), and the umpire will look at it, see the ASA approval, shrug, and put it in play. In the meantime, you look like an absolute dick. And nothing happens.

I am CERTAIN - based on my observations - which are pretty well informed, and both audible and visual - that I have seen illegal bats used in college. And TB, for sure. And sometimes, my opinion is that it is more systemic than just an individual player.

Personally, I would have no issue whatsoever with returning to a BPF 1.2 standard (USSSA, NSA, etc.), rather than the ASA f2219. I don't feel bats in college - or for that matter, Gold play - are too hot. Not my issue. But I DO have an issue with a team / school / player(s) getting over on everyone else, and having absolutely nothing be available to remedy it.

Scott

[Tumblebug]

Although I could make a perfectly legal bat that would fail the test, a compression test is IMO the best option currently available. X-ray doesn't work on metal (ultrasound does) but a shaved-metal bat won't pass a compression test assuming the test number is legit.

[ssarge]

REPORTED injuries may be down....solely because of the lack of knowledge on how to report an injury....or that 95% of them don't result in a trip to the hospital. It doesn't mean pitchers aren't getting pummeled....I saw another one last week....I've seen 6 pitchers hit with batted balls in an elite HS league in a total of 20 games. Three of them had to leave the game.

If Sam says he has seen 6 pitchers struck by batted balls, then it happened. No doubt in my mind.

I'm not sure that is sufficient data to influence the argument, but it is good data if he saw it.

I think moving the rubber to 43 in HS will be a good thing.

I think throwing inside once in a while so hitters can pull the ball is a good thing too, but then I am a hitting coach.


Sam, I DO happen to think injuries are down, though. I have no empirical evidence. But the Bollinger insurance rates don't reflect a recent rash of injuries, and I think they would if the injuries were occuring.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Although I could make a perfectly legal bat that would fail the test, a compression test is IMO the best option currently available. X-ray doesn't work on metal (ultrasound does) but a shaved-metal bat won't pass a compression test assuming the test number is legit.

Interesting. If it is your opinion - and I realize the limitations you may have on publically sharing - that the bats disallowed at Gold Nationals WERE legal, and merely failed a test that is close to real world, but NOT real world, then I'll scale back on my rhetoric addressed to your competitors.

Regards,

Scott