ASA Gold Nationals Brackets now posted

[ssarge]

In our area we have over 40 declared gold teams, but in fact only two to four will actually be able to deliver any semblance of a real gold season. The rest will make an endless litany of promises and fold up early.

First of all, that's the way competition is supposed to work. In ANY endeavor. But wouldn't the same 2-4 qualify most / all years, and accomplish the same thing?

Premier invitation system is an attempt to create a system where certain organizations, certain teams are designated as A/Gold teams.

I get that. But I absolutely don't believe most people need this "help." By 18U, no one needs to "identify" for parents and players which are the quality organizations. If someone DOES require this, he/she hasn't been paying attention, and will earn what he/she deserves. For ONE season, and then they too will figure it out.


And anyway, should we go down the list of invited teams together and see how often this concept failed in the inagural year? Most of the teams competing deserve to be there. But there are some very dubious choices as well.


Look, I do understand your point. But if teams really belong, they will qualify anyway. And always have. See kevin's post above. To invite teams to Premier who have NOT been able to qualify consistently for recent Gold National tournaments - and to ignore some who have - goes AGAINST everything you are saying. It perpetuates the "good old boy" concept that many people find repugnant.

I have no dog in this fight, and I agree with a LOT of what Premier has done. MOST that it has done, in fact. BUT, in the opinion of the large majority of people, an invitational system is NOT how you determine a national champion. In any sport, at any level. It is slightly worse than a BCS-type system, which itself is largely reviled.


If a team that DESERVES to be called A / Gold can't qualify, then that proves the point. I think that 75% of the same teams would be there anyway. I would probably invite top 10-12 qualifiers each season (maybe T-9 or better), and make everyone else qualify. I would allocate berths to regions appropriately, so that it was fair for the SoCal teams, and everyone else.

And I have no idea what Gary / others behind Premier are thinking about this. If you are on the inside and know that the invitational system will continue, than you have more knowledge than me.

But I do believe that this is about the only thing that could derail Premier, and left completely unchecked, I think it might.


One other consideration, and I have actually heard Gary say this - when Gold invited the final 4 finishers back each year as automatic qualifiers, it actually created a dilemna for those teams. How does a team like that get sharp for competition? Qualifiers are hard competition. Maybe too hard, and that was some of the reason for Premier, because the qualifiers got too big, and were hard for the wrong reasons. But the ability to play other top teams in a meaningful game sharpens and prepares a team. Eliminate that, and the team has a hard time honing itself. And several years ago, Gary said as much about the Batbusters.


If you have to have two rounds of qualifying to accomplish this, and the top 50 or so teams are grandfathered into the second round of qualifying, well, OK. But in my opinion, very few should be invited into the national tournament. And certainly nowhere near 50+ (out of 68).

Best regards,

Scott

[AlwaysImprove]

The need for gold identity was much bigger 4 years ago in SoCal. As time has passed it has become clear in most major market areas, SoCal, NorCal, Texas, Florida, Georgia, Arizona. Outside of those areas the concept of true gold is just now starting to take hold. Premier helps drive that.

I am not on the inside of premier and have no inside knowledge. I am just aware of how it makes some of the gold programs in our area run in a more improved fashion. I suspect that someone like Gary has seen a number of kids he was recruiting choose to go to a "gold" team only to have that team fold in April and leave the kid stranded and coming back to a team full of a lot of talent. It certainly happens way to often around here.

There is a major problem 'You should be able to win a qualifier, if you are truly gold anyway'. First recognize that ASA has a huge incentive to put as many teams in any tournament as they possible can. More teams, more umpires, more free umpire rooms, more tournament fees, more hotel tax dollars. ASA gold qualifiers had become as bad as 16UA nationals. Tournaments with 160 teams playing for 2 berths.

Yeah, the truly great should rise to the top. The problem is that you would get into runs of 4 and 5 teams in a row that just did not belong in the tournament. These teams would largely attend to show that they are a true gold team so they can recruit for next year. The major programs would end up with a 14 game tournament, getting third, and 10 of those games were run ruled games, i.e. not even worth their time. Hard to come from 4 run ruled games and then play a major competitor.

The law of averages start to work against you. If you are playing 20 games in a row, must win all, even against bad competition, there is a good chance of your pitcher have an off game, or your bats just not coming around, and you loose to one of these teams that everyone else run rules. As the number of teams in these tournaments explodes, the chances of something just going bad, go way up.

In these tournaments you often regularly see teams get 3 wins in the winners bracket, and then get run ruled by a team that finishes tied for 33rd. With so many teams, and such variability in the quality of the teams, it is less important about the quality of your team. Get a great lucky draw, and you will do much better than a team that is way more talented. That does not seem right either.

I agree with you, too many invites will be a very bad thing. And no, i am not going to parse through the list and find the mistakes that were made, they are certainly there. It is their first year, and they are certainly trying some new things, and some of those will need improvement. I am only making the point that even though it may not be perfect, there is rational for this type of a system. The gold programs have begged ASA to have a A/B or gold/A system for years.

I really like your concept that certain teams get to skip deeper into a qualifier playoff brackets. The lesser teams get a chance to play into the more major portion of the brackets. I do not believe these major programs are looking for a free ride to the end, but they also should not have to slog through 14 games, 10 of which are non competitive.

[ssarge]

I really like your concept that certain teams get to skip deeper into a qualifier playoff brackets. The lesser teams get a chance to play into the more major portion of the brackets. I do not believe these major programs are looking for a free ride to the end, but they also should not have to slog through 14 games, 10 of which are non competitive.

Sure.

To your point about big qualifiers, I do understand the concern, and WOULD personally stratify it by having two levels of qualifying.

That said, under the old system, Firecrackers, Batbusters, Cruisers, Angels, Explosion, A's, etc. always seemed to manage to get it done. Every year. Cream rises to the top.

I do kind of doubt Gary lost recruits to "unqualified" gold teams. I know of a couple of times he lost to the Firecrackers (and vice versa). Maybe the Cruisers and Angels. But kids at a level to be offered a spot on his team do not go to a marginal team.

Best regards,

Scott

[jmo]

Scott,

First off, thank you for your kind words . That goes for you to Kevin

I do love this game of softball at all ages and at all levels and I am here to help as many girls as I can to get an education - because that is what this is truely about.

As for Premier and their future - it is my understanding (and I could be wrong), that they will be hosting a 14U, 16U and High School division next year that will be at the same exact time as ASA. Teams will have to make a choice. The rumor mill is also indicating that many of the top So Cal 14U & 16U teams will be playing their nationals in So Cal instead of Midland, Texas and Chattanooga, Tennessee. We will have to see how that works out.

As for the invites, it is also my understanding that each year, the number of invited teams will be going down and more qualifiers added. As in any new venture, it takes time to build it. By inviting teams from all across the country, they assured themselves of having a National tournament. Many of the teams were well deserving of their invitation and yes there are some that maybe are questionable (not really maybe) but overall, there is quality competition throughout the tournament and country. ESPN has jumped in this year and really added credibility to what Dan, Gary and crew are doing and to my knowledge, ESPN plans on continuing their partnership and extending the coverage next year to possibly include all the championships, just like you said. There is also talk that next year, many more games will be televised on ESPN3 (this Friday at Bill Barber in the 16U division, they are suppose to televise some games if they are set up in time) and in the farther future, maybe the game of softball can be shown like Little League (we can only hope for the sake of the girls and for softball).

As for your hypothetical question, I would have to agree with you that if ASA is really concerned, that they will have to try something out of the norm (just like Premier did). And I also agree with you that I don't see them doing anything to quickly. They do know that even with teams defecting to Premier, they will still be able to get 160 teams to play in 14U and 16U ASA Nationals, even if the overall quality of many teams is not what it use to be. And that is what led to Premier, the attitude that they will always be able to get teams. I don't know if moving the qualifiers and Nationals up would have too big a difference since they continue to put Nationals in places like Midland, Texas, Owensboro, KY, etc. I think that people will still look at the locations and question if they really want to go play in the middle of nowhere with 150+ teams and games being started after midnight.

As always, I respect your opinions and your posts. You are always thinking out of the box and I like that. I still wish you were in So Cal so my daughter could take some hitting lessons with you. Please let me know if you are ever down here and have some time to work with her.

Talk to you soon buddy,

Bret

[ssarge]

As for the invites, it is also my understanding that each year, the number of invited teams will be going down and more qualifiers added. As in any new venture, it takes time to build it. By inviting teams from all across the country, they assured themselves of having a National tournament. Many of the teams were well deserving of their invitation and yes there are some that maybe are questionable (not really maybe) but overall, there is quality competition throughout the tournament and country. ESPN has jumped in this year and really added credibility to what Gary and crew are doing and to my knowledge, ESPN plans on continuing their partnership and extending the coverage next year to possibly include all the championships, just like you said. There is also talk that next year, many more games will be televised on ESPN3 (this Friday at Bill Barber in the 16U division, they are suppose to televise some games if they are set up in time) and in the farther future, maybe the game of softball can be shown like Little League (we can only hope for the sake of the girls and for softball).

Truthfully, I think that is a pretty good strategy.

As always, I respect your opinions and your posts. You are always thinking out of the box and I like that. I still wish you were in So Cal so my daughter could take some hitting lessons with you. Please let me know if you are ever down here and have some time to work with her.

Thank you very much, though you are way too kind.

As it turns out, I think I will be in SoCal on 8/27-29, checking Kelly into school. Imagine we will get out to the field some / all of those days, along w/ Fischer and her dad. I speak for everyone in saying that we would love to see you and Megan - call us if you can make it.

Best,

Scott