USA Jr National Team-ASA

[Sam]

No, players should be given equal chances. If a player chooses to play in PGF, that is their choice. They should still be able to represent the best in the US if they are the best. The rule discriminates and is unfair and I will bet ASA doesn't win this fight. Their rule punishes the players and the sport.

And if ASA was to pull their funding portion of BOTH National teams, then what? The answer is, that there would not be an National team. Do you honestly think any of the other alphabets would (or can) pony of the bucks to fund either team? Again, I ask the question, how much (if any) of the other alphabets dollars go to funding either team? (If they are doing so, it is not being done on the record to date)

ASA has been very fundamental in getting softball in the Olympics in the first place, and has been at the forefront in getting it back (with-out the help of MLB this team around) What is really 'punishing' the sports (your words, not mine) is the other alphabets not doing their fair share, yet profiting from what ASA has done. There has and will always be the politics in choosing the National team (be it JR or SR) and this has been that why since the '96 team competed in Atlanta.

The National teams are sponsored corporately and individually. ASA's funding is also obtained, in large part, from corporate sponsors and their take from the insurance required to be an ASA registered player. Any of the other entities who took ownership of the National Teams would, in turn, take those sponsorships. This is a non-issue.

ASA wasn't successful in KEEPING the sport in the olympics, failing woefully when the one vote that would have kept it in, the vote of an ASA sponsor, recused himself.

ASA used to be what LL was to baseball. They have abused and taken advantage of their customers for too long, providing the perfect conditions for a competitive alternative organization. They will lose the National Teams over decisions just like this. A boatful of morons.

[PDad]

@okla21fan: ASA would lose their standing as NGB if they pulled their support for the National teams and we all know how much pride they take in being NGB. As Sam posted, being NGB draws a lot of financial support - I'm sure more than what was reported with the National Teams - and that would continue, possibly more, with whomever picks up the pieces.

IOC wants the MLB stars and they aren't get them - especially while MLB has its World Baseball Classic. Kind of ironic that an organization that used to be so strict on amateur status now eschews amateurs in favor of professionals.

My point was actually disputing your notion about ASA being at the forefront of getting softball back into the Olympics because it is really the international sports federations that are leading the effort - as it should be.

Bottom line - this isn't about ASA versus the other alphabets. It's about ASA acting like the NGB by continuing their past SOP to form the best team possible instead of using the players as a pawn in their battle with PGF.

[CULater]

@okla21fan: ASA would lose their standing as NGB if they pulled their support for the National teams and we all know how much pride they take in being NGB. As Sam posted, being NGB draws a lot of financial support - I'm sure more than what was reported with the National Teams - and that would continue, possibly more, with whomever picks up the pieces.

IOC wants the MLB stars and they aren't get them - especially while MLB has its World Baseball Classic. Kind of ironic that an organization that used to be so strict on amateur status now eschews amateurs in favor of professionals.

My point was actually disputing your notion about ASA being at the forefront of getting softball back into the Olympics because it is really the international sports federations that are leading the effort - as it should be.

Bottom line - this isn't about ASA versus the other alphabets. It's about ASA acting like the NGB by continuing their past SOP to form the best team possible instead of using the players as a pawn in their battle with PGF.

PDad - prior to the 2011 WJNT, can you name one player that was selected to the team that did not play in ASA championship play? So seems to me the SOP didn't really change, it is just now in writing, and is affecting different players.

Again, I think the rule is unfair, always has been. I just wonder where all the outrage for how the WJNT was selected back then and who was looking out for the little guy (TCS, USSSA, NSA, PONY) prior to PGF being formed.

[PDad]

... Bottom line - this isn't about ASA versus the other alphabets. It's about ASA acting like the NGB by continuing their past SOP to form the best team possible instead of using the players as a pawn in their battle with PGF.

PDad - prior to the 2011 WJNT, can you name one player that was selected to the team that did not play in ASA championship play? So seems to me the SOP didn't really change, it is just now in writing, and is affecting different players.

Again, I think the rule is unfair, always has been. I just wonder where all the outrage for how the WJNT was selected back then and who was looking out for the little guy (TCS, USSSA, NSA, PONY) prior to PGF being formed.

How did they identify the non-ASA players for 2011? Their SOP included taking input from more sources - most notably college coaches. IMO, colleges do a better job scouting that age group than anyone else and that also covered anyone prior to 2011 that didn't play ASA.

[Trophy Hunter]

How they did it before has little bearing on their legal obligation going forward, and most of the players selected last year were likely identified as "elite" prior to the advent of PGF.

I looked at USA baseball and soccer and they both have player identification and evaluation requirements well beyond what ASA has proposed. In both cases, if you don't participate in their events, you aren't going to be considered for their National teams.

End of story.

In softball you have a relative handful of teams that have gone rogue, renounced their affiliation with the NGB, taken actions detrimental to the health of the NGB, yet still want to participate in certain aspects of the NGB's program.

Meanwhile, the NGB has done nothing to restrict any player or club from participating in their sanctioned programs and selection process.

I'm pretty sure ASA is on sound legal ground here.

That isn't to say I agree with their decision.

[ontheblack]

I believe we will see some major changes in how FP orgs deal with this going forward.

1. Hybrid 18G teams formed solely to give their girls JNT eligibility.
2. Teams play both 18G and PGF 18HS

I have no doubt others will come up with other creative workarounds when people realize TH is probably correct and his soccer and baseball examples will used by ASA to defend these actions.

[PDad]

Just because something might be legal doesn't make it ethical or moral. I wouldn't have an issue with the changes if their sole intent was to improve the formation of the best national team.

USA Baseball and soccer start at earlier ages to identify and develop players for their sports. Their programs are open to individual players and are scheduled to minimize conflicts with the competitive seasons. They are not being used to prop up a larger parent organization.

- If the announced changes don't take effect until the 2013 championship season as the USA Softball website suggests, I'd say they provided ample notice.

- They can't really do a good job of evaluating players strictly from ASA championship play. Players need to be evaluated over an extended period of time and college coaches can provide that.

- They should notify players that have been identified as potential candidates ahead of time so they can plan appropriately. Others that are not really up for consideration would also be able to do likewise.

[ontheblack]

This is a business though, where legal is all that matters. Ethical and moral are important factors for you and me, but that wont have any bearing on the outcome of this debate if Haning et al choose to fight this battle in court.

I am confident teams will figure ways to pull this off aslong as ASA doesnt move the cheese again.

[Trophy Hunter]

Just because something might be legal doesn't make it ethical or moral. I wouldn't have an issue with the changes if their sole intent was to improve the formation of the best national team. One could easily argue that it would be unethical to use dues and registration fees paid by affiliated members to scout non-sanctioned events. The proposed registration and participation requirement is far from burdensome compared to other sports.
USA Baseball and soccer start at earlier ages to identify and develop players for their sports. Their programs are open to individual players and are scheduled to minimize conflicts with the competitive seasons. They are not being used to prop up a larger parent organization. I doubt the JNT is propping up ASA. Not by a long shot.

- If the announced changes don't take effect until the 2013 championship season as the USA Softball website suggests, I'd say they provided ample notice. Agreed

- They can't really do a good job of evaluating players strictly from ASA championship play. Players need to be evaluated over an extended period of time and college coaches can provide that. I am sure they consider college coaches input, particularly those affiliated with their national teams.

- They should notify players that have been identified as potential candidates ahead of time so they can plan appropriately. Others that are not really up for consideration would also be able to do likewise. ASA has said all registered members are considered potential candidates. If a player never registers and participates in sanctioned events, that is their decision, and a de facto declaration that they do not want to be considered for the national teams. Again, refer to the soccer and baseball examples, where it is clear that if you want to be considered for the national team, you better be part of their affiliate programs.

ASA's goal here is not to field an inferior team. If anything, these new guidelines put them more in step with other NGB programs. If this new program doesn't take effect until next year, there is probably no legal basis for a dispute. Even then, it's only for this one year and not likely to be contested in court.

[jmo]

Just because something might be legal doesn't make it ethical or moral. I wouldn't have an issue with the changes if their sole intent was to improve the formation of the best national team. One could easily argue that it would be unethical to use dues and registration fees paid by affiliated members to scout non-sanctioned events. The proposed registration and participation requirement is far from burdensome compared to other sports.
USA Baseball and soccer start at earlier ages to identify and develop players for their sports. Their programs are open to individual players and are scheduled to minimize conflicts with the competitive seasons. They are not being used to prop up a larger parent organization. I doubt the JNT is propping up ASA. Not by a long shot.

- If the announced changes don't take effect until the 2013 championship season as the USA Softball website suggests, I'd say they provided ample notice. Agreed
The selection for the JNT was based on Gold Nationals several weeks ago, not 2013. There was no ample notice.

- They can't really do a good job of evaluating players strictly from ASA championship play. Players need to be evaluated over an extended period of time and college coaches can provide that. I am sure they consider college coaches input, particularly those affiliated with their national teams.
You are right. One tournament is not going to get you the top players. The college coach turnout at Gold Nationals was small and thus does not really help as most of the college coaches felt the talent at Gold was not there this year. I know of coaches on the selection committee that did not attend Gold Nationals. They do not agree with the ASA selection process announcement. In the past, college coaches, top gold coaches, Derek Allister and several other top recruiters were all involved with the selection. I do know that there were hundreds of coaches at PGF this year. The college coaches I spoke with were ALL in disagreement and felt that the JNT should have the best players in the country, not the best players at Gold Nationals.

- They should notify players that have been identified as potential candidates ahead of time so they can plan appropriately. Others that are not really up for consideration would also be able to do likewise. ASA has said all registered members are considered potential candidates. If a player never registers and participates in sanctioned events, that is their decision, and a de facto declaration that they do not want to be considered for the national teams. Again, refer to the soccer and baseball examples, where it is clear that if you want to be considered for the national team, you better be part of their affiliate programs.

ASA has said that all registered members are considered potential candidates is not true as stated by Ronnie Isham himself. He is only evaluating players at Gold Nationals. Also, the decision to play ASA so that you can be eligible for JNT was taken away from all the players when they announced their selection process two weeks before Gold Nationals so players did NOT have the opportunity to decide.

No, you had to participate in Championship play. Our team registered ASA to play Champions Cup but players were still not eligible for consideration. As long as you are a registered, insured, dues paying ASA member you should be in the pool. Playing in one tournament should not be the deciding factor.

Spazsdad is right. The announcement even said that all you had to do was play in Championship ASA play and you would be eligible yet comments from a USA National Coach said that was not true. They were only going to go off of Gold Nationals.