Shaved bats in HS play ??

[Tumblebug]

Gone,

There is no doubt that Sarge is right about the hitters improving. My comments were regarding hitters who need juiced bats in order to hit. There are lots of them and they each have two parents who have loud voices in this debate. So the bats are juiced to a level that allows crappy hitters to hit bombs....which makes the trained excellent hitters even more dangerous. My argument is that the bats should be tuned down to show a difference between the good hitters and those who suck. Right now, there isn't much difference.

Again, this is fiction. There is a huge difference. I do the ball exit speed tests annually. Cheater bat speeds are demonstrably higher and easily detected in a BBS test. The problem is not the difference in bats but rather it is a difference in a wide range of hitters and hitter skill sets. You don't need dumber bats you need smarter tests.

Are you saying that ASA testing of exit speeds involves other than using a stationary bat?

You do testing with stationary bats....worthless. The difference, as it is in slowpitch, is that hitters that would never hit a HR with a non-juiced bat are able to hit HRs due solely to the bat they use. I see it every day.

Fiction in red: We have a machine that swings a bat and measures the bat speed and the exit velocity of the ball. We do the same testing with LIVE hitters. It has nothing to do with any certification tests but rather our own performance testing. You truly have no idea what I do and have absolutely no business speaking to the subject. You are making it up as you go.

Are you saying that ASA testing of exit speeds involves other than using a stationary bat?

No, read the red in the quote. It says "You" (meaning Anderson Bat Company) and we obviously aren't ASA. We don't actually conduct the ASA testing. It is done by a third party lab and reported to ASA. Along with preliminary certification testing for ASA, we have our own testing that more realistically correlates to what actually happens on the field and we do that annually on new models in comparison to old models.

However, even in the testing that is done for ASA certification (static bat) the performance scores are demonstrably better for juiced bats.

[Skarp]

Bollinger's rates likely don't change due to the fact that they routinely deny claims. I had a kid that tore her ACL during a game....needed surgery.....Bollinger would approve the claim only if you went to one of their approved surgeons....who would likely be performing their 1st ever surgery on your body. Bottom line: If you have other insurance and can get a real surgeon to repair your injury, Bollinger doesn't pay.

Contrary to Tumblebug's claim of my lying, I have seen 6 pitchers hit by comebackers in this HS season alone. I don't see the instance of injuries going down.

How are you able to post any of that, and keep a straight face? Do you have anything to back those statements up? Or is it just "your word" ???

Been around the game for over 20 years and I know exactly 0 people who have ever received a dime from Bollinger. Maybe you know more. Bollinger is no different than any insurance company.

Having spent part of my professional life defending insurance companies against claims of improper policy rescission and/or denial of coverage, I have to disagree with your assertion that insurance companies routinely and improperly deny claims. The truth of the matter is that insurance companies usually deny coverage only when they are sure the decision is, legally speaking, a slam-dunk winner. When insurance companies get in front of juries, they lose. And they know it. They also know that they can get hit with massive punitives for a) unfair business practices, and b) mental anguish suffered by anyone whose claim is wrongfully denied. Add those risks to the basic costs of litigation, and it's a much better business decision to simply pay claims--including, in many instances, those with little or no merit.

[Sam]

Skarp,

I'm not sure if I said that Bollinger improperly denied claims....I said they wouldn't pay unless you went to one of their approved surgeons. Big difference. You get what you pay for and you don't pay much for Bollinger, so you shouldn't expect much.

I deal a lot with title insurance companies. They almost never pay on initial claims even when they know they are going to pay in the end. Very profitable companies.

[Sam]

So TB,

You guys use more accurate testing.....what speed does the ball really exit the bat? Why do you do testing other than the ASA cert testing?

[Tumblebug]

So TB,

You guys use more accurate testing.....what speed does the ball really exit the bat? Why do you do testing other than the ASA cert testing?

You should make an effort to be more careful in your reading and precise in your language or someone may construe it as more fiction. The accuracy of the certification testing was never made a point and is not in question

What I said was: "we have our own testing that more realistically correlates to what actually happens on the field." We prepare and compare a simpler data set than that produced by the certification testing.

The speed of the ball off of any bat is directly related to the mass, velocity and momentum involved in the ball/bat collision. Even if I were inclined to publish competition critical confidential engineering data, which I am not, your question is too broad for an answer.

[ssarge]

Tumblebug;

A general question, and I understand if you are not in a position to answer it:

It seems to me that bats could possibly be engineered to accomplish different goals. I'm not stating that, because I don't know. I guess I am asking.

Is it possible to engineer a bat that gets closer to the 98mph exit speed at collision speeds below that of the ASA test? In other words, get very close to 98mph with a 100 mph collision, and still be under 98mph with a 110mph collision?

And if so, is that one direction bat manufacturers choose to go?


And do other companies work to get a geometrically better (rather than linearally better) result at collision speeds above 110mph? In other words, a 120mph collision results in exit speed greater than 108mph?

It seems to me that the first approach would favor the younger or typical player, and the second approach would be geared to the elite player.

I'm assuming it isn't possible to do both (if it is even possible to do either). But wonder if manufacturers pick one or the other? As a company, or is it specific to different bat models within the same company?


Thanks, this stuff really interests me, and I greatly appreciate your involvement on the board. Nate used to do the same thing, but obviously didn't have your engineering background. But it speaks well for your company when you interact with the consumer like this. Certainly, it is unique among your peers.

Thanks and regards,

Scott

[Sam]

TB,

When I said "accurate" I meant it, as I was making my own value judgement. A test involving a moving bat and moving ball more accurately reflects what happens on the field. ASA effectively measures the ball exit speed of a bunt.

You can certainly tell us the approximate range of ball exit speeds in these moving bat tests, can't you?

[Tumblebug]

Tumblebug;

A general question, and I understand if you are not in a position to answer it:

It seems to me that bats could possibly be engineered to accomplish different goals. I'm not stating that, because I don't know. I guess I am asking.

Is it possible to engineer a bat that gets closer to the 98mph exit speed at collision speeds below that of the ASA test? In other words, get very close to 98mph with a 100 mph collision, and still be under 98mph with a 110mph collision?

And if so, is that one direction bat manufacturers choose to go?


And do other companies work to get a geometrically better (rather than linearally better) result at collision speeds above 110mph? In other words, a 120mph collision results in exit speed greater than 108mph?

It seems to me that the first approach would favor the younger or typical player, and the second approach would be geared to the elite player.

I'm assuming it isn't possible to do both (if it is even possible to do either). But wonder if manufacturers pick one or the other? As a company, or is it specific to different bat models within the same company?


Thanks, this stuff really interests me, and I greatly appreciate your involvement on the board. Nate used to do the same thing, but obviously didn't have your engineering background. But it speaks well for your company when you interact with the consumer like this. Certainly, it is unique among your peers.

Thanks and regards,

Scott

Scott, Both are possible and the best of engineering groups can do both. Exactly how, and how much we accomplish that is confidential for competitive reasons. However, the answer is very long and complex. Believe it or not, I would be willing to have the conversation in person but no notes, cameras or recording devices. You and I would have a great conversation because of your understanding of the swing. I think it would be enlightening for us both.

[Tumblebug]

TB,

When I said "accurate" I meant it, as I was making my own value judgement. A test involving a moving bat and moving ball more accurately reflects what happens on the field. ASA effectively measures the ball exit speed of a bunt.

You can certainly tell us the approximate range of ball exit speeds in these moving bat tests, can't you?

All of the testing is "accurate" to .5 MPH. I can tell you what is common knowledge, the BBS is less than 98 as measured by the certification testing. You can't weasel confidential data out of me. I will extend to you the same offer I gave ssarge, In person, no notes, cameras, or recording devices. I will explain to you how it works, what they are trying to accomplish and why there is nothing sinister about any of it. Our testing starts in August with Slowpitch, Fastpitch right after. Bring your best hitter and I'll include her in the testing.

[madaboutsoftball]

wow....when I posted this I did not know what a big topic this has become. Thanks for all the info and input. Very interesting to read all the thoughts on this.

Let's hope this issue will go away or find resolve.