Shaved bats in HS play ??

[ssarge]

Not saying this isn't so, but when NFHS introduced metal spikes/cleats to the softball game, Mary S. was specifically asked at the ASA National Convention if there was any data on safety lent to the decision. She said there was no data available and no specific reason as to why or why not to allow them.

Seems logical, actually. How could there have been data from tracking something that could never have been tracked, since it had never previously been legal?

Suspect there is data, now.

As for bats, I will say again - LEGAL bats are NOT currently as hot as in the recent past. Neither are balls. If ball exit speed is up - and it may be, but no one has presented data to support this - it is because of advances by players in hitting mechanics and / or strength.

Regards,

Scott

[Sam]

The data gathered and analyzed by the Center for Injury Research is incomplete at best and flawed if reviewed with a jaundiced eye. It is obtained only from "study schools" from athletic trainers who enter the data on-line for injuries that they treat. What happens when a trainer isn't present? Five of the six instances I witnessed this year were not treated by a trainer because a trainer was not at the event. Trainers are always at football games, basketball games, wrestling, and cheerleading events. They are not as often around softball games. They wouldn't know about many injuries.

The data is far from imperical.

The reason Mike doesn't see data at ASA is that nobody gathers data on ASA injuries. Nor does anyone gather data on NSA, USSSA, TCS, et al.

The bottom line is that the results of the study are akin to basing a nationwide study on drivers running stop signs by gathering data on 4 intersections from crossing guards who are present at the intersections 10 hours per week.

It is available data, but it isn't very good or reliable.

[Gone in 2.6]

Not saying this isn't so, but when NFHS introduced metal spikes/cleats to the softball game, Mary S. was specifically asked at the ASA National Convention if there was any data on safety lent to the decision. She said there was no data available and no specific reason as to why or why not to allow them.

Seems logical, actually. How could there have been data from tracking something that could never have been tracked, since it had never previously been legal?

Suspect there is data, now.

As for bats, I will say again - LEGAL bats are NOT currently as hot as in the recent past. Neither are balls. If ball exit speed is up - and it may be, but no one has presented data to support this - it is because of advances by players in hitting mechanics and / or strength.
Regards,

Scott

I think there's something to this. The current college freshman were middle school kids when Candrea and Enquist released RVP and admitted that fastpitch mechanics should be no different than baseball mechanics. This was a landmark statement (confession is more like it) in my opinion, for fastpitch instruction. It changed attitudes across the board. The current college freshman class are the first that were still "little kids"/not in high school when this came down. Look at the effing power numbers from some of these frosh hitters. I think this could continue trend up as each successive class has an increasingly larger pool of kids that learned to hit rotationally at younger and younger ages.

Of course all this would also translate to ASA...and since it's a younger group, the ripple effect would be way ahead of college.

This is what makes Sam's assertion that the hitters are crappy kind of funny. The hitters are WAY better than ever. Even though the bats are deader as are the balls, he sees more pitchers than ever getting drilled.

God help them if they ever have to actually throw the ball on some part of the white like the rulebook states and like their baseball brothers do.

[AlwaysImprove]

The data gathered and analyzed by the Center for Injury Research is incomplete at best and flawed if reviewed with a jaundiced eye. It is obtained only from "study schools" from athletic trainers who enter the data on-line for injuries that they treat. What happens when a trainer isn't present? Five of the six instances I witnessed this year were not treated by a trainer because a trainer was not at the event. Trainers are always at football games, basketball games, wrestling, and cheerleading events. They are not as often around softball games. They wouldn't know about many injuries.

The data is far from imperical.

The reason Mike doesn't see data at ASA is that nobody gathers data on ASA injuries. Nor does anyone gather data on NSA, USSSA, TCS, et al.

The bottom line is that the results of the study are akin to basing a nationwide study on drivers running stop signs by gathering data on 4 intersections from crossing guards who are present at the intersections 10 hours per week.

It is available data, but it isn't very good or reliable.

My own practical experience with the game does not match to yours. I only ever seen one pitcher hit with a comebacker, and when it happened I felt like the coach should have pulled that pitcher 2 innings prior, the pitcher was clearly in over her head. I have watched thousands of games.

I have seen way more broken ankles due to bad slides by kids on teams with bad coaches. I have seen way more kids hurt monkeying around in the dugout. My own data tells me it is way more likely my kid dies in a car accident riding around with young drivers than any risk she faces anywhere on diamond.

The NFHS data is not 'jaundiced'. It is a random sample. I agree it may be a smallish sample, but it is still pretty random. I suspect the availability of trainers is higher than you are attributing. Many schools in our area have a baseball game, track meet, tennis and softball all happening at the same time. So trainers are around, and come over to the softball diamond for any injury.

If you have credible statistical data, and that data shows an increase in injury, or an unacceptable injury rate, then we need to get that to the ASA rules body.

Right now, the current regulatory regime manages the risk of the batted ball by the exit speed in the ASA bat testing program. Currently that number is set at 98. I am having a hard time understanding if you are arguing that:
A) This approach is flawed.
B) The testing is flawed.
C) An exit speed of 98 is to high.
D) There is rampant cheating.
E) All of the above.

The way to fix each of these is completely different. If it is all of the above, you would probably do better picking the biggest problem on the list, building a supporting case and proposing how it can be done better.

[Sam]

Gone,

There is no doubt that Sarge is right about the hitters improving. My comments were regarding hitters who need juiced bats in order to hit. There are lots of them and they each have two parents who have loud voices in this debate. So the bats are juiced to a level that allows crappy hitters to hit bombs....which makes the trained excellent hitters even more dangerous. My argument is that the bats should be tuned down to show a difference between the good hitters and those who suck. Right now, there isn't much difference.

[Tumblebug]

Not saying this isn't so, but when NFHS introduced metal spikes/cleats to the softball game, Mary S. was specifically asked at the ASA National Convention if there was any data on safety lent to the decision. She said there was no data available and no specific reason as to why or why not to allow them.

Seems logical, actually. How could there have been data from tracking something that could never have been tracked, since it had never previously been legal?

Suspect there is data, now.

As for bats, I will say again - LEGAL bats are NOT currently as hot as in the recent past. Neither are balls. If ball exit speed is up - and it may be, but no one has presented data to support this - it is because of advances by players in hitting mechanics and / or strength.

Regards,

Scott

ASA and NFHS are very different animals. The reporting in HS and College can be made mandatory. There was also talk of who did the reporting and how it was gathered. it's interesting how hard these people are trying to gather real and important data.

Because I run the tests annually, I can tell you categorically that the ball exit speeds are dropping due to the certification changes and, if the bat is legal, the best bats today are slower that the best bats two years ago. That's why cheating truly an issue that needs to be policed.

[Sam]

I think TB should qualify the ball exit speed drop comment to reflect that the speeds have dropped according to stationary bat testing.

Anybody think the ball in this pic is exiting at higher than 98mph after you see the whip on the bat?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1124&start=10

[Tumblebug]

Gone,

There is no doubt that Sarge is right about the hitters improving. My comments were regarding hitters who need juiced bats in order to hit. There are lots of them and they each have two parents who have loud voices in this debate. So the bats are juiced to a level that allows crappy hitters to hit bombs....which makes the trained excellent hitters even more dangerous. My argument is that the bats should be tuned down to show a difference between the good hitters and those who suck. Right now, there isn't much difference.

Again, this is fiction. There is a huge difference. I do the ball exit speed tests annually. Cheater bat speeds are demonstrably higher and easily detected in a BBS test. The problem is not the difference in bats but rather it is a difference in a wide range of hitters and hitter skill sets. You don't need dumber bats you need smarter tests.

[dodgerblue]

I think this post fell into a different subject as we all know "yes" hitters have got better and others saying jealous parents are to blame for little Suzy hitting twice a week that's why she's hitting bombs. I personally know kids that hit with good instructors that still "can't hit" every kid is different. Bottom line is there are a lot of shaved bats out there and if you know people in the slowpitch world they will tell you that they're shaving more and more fastpitch bats these days but this is my opinion and I personally know kids swinging shaved bats that's why it kind of gets me angry when people come on here and think that it's ok to do so that we're just jealous of the hard work being put in. Beleive me the only hard work being done is spending that $100 to get the bat shaved.

[Tumblebug]

I think TB should qualify the ball exit speed drop comment to reflect that the speeds have dropped according to stationary bat testing.

Anybody think the ball in this pic is exiting at higher than 98mph after you see the whip on the bat?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1124&start=10

How would you suggest I qualify it in a way you won't simply post an unsubstantiated disagreement?

Bat "whip" has almost no real affect on raising the exit speed. A stiffer bat actually works better because the bat deflection absorbs energy rather than transferring it. That particular picture is evidence for the opposite argument. But I'm sure you will disagree with that because it doesn't support your agenda.