Proposed ASA rule changes

[MTR]

Mike,

Kids who can't afford to play travel generally don't play travel. Some teams waive team fees for players in financial need. They aren't paid. They typically do fundraising and their team fees are paid out of the fundraising.

There might be a problem if the travel team paid for her to go to a private school.

Sam,

This is your argument, not mine. The college player is pro because she is receiving benefits for her labor in the form of an education which can be terminated at the coach's will.

Where is the difference? Is not a TB player in need receiving benefits for her labor in the form of excused fees (which may include some travel and lodging) which can be terminated at the coach's will?

Not all college players receive funds, and certainly, I doubt the majority get full rides. So, what is the difference? In both cases, the player is receiving compensation for performance that is not guaranteed to be renewed. And, BTW, quite a few collegiate SAs are involved in fund raising for their respective team, so that isn't anything new on this front.

[Sam]

Mike,

Kids who can't afford to play travel generally don't play travel. Some teams waive team fees for players in financial need. They aren't paid. They typically do fundraising and their team fees are paid out of the fundraising.

There might be a problem if the travel team paid for her to go to a private school.

Sam,

This is your argument, not mine. The college player is pro because she is receiving benefits for her labor in the form of an education which can be terminated at the coach's will.

Where is the difference? Is not a TB player in need receiving benefits for her labor in the form of excused fees (which may include some travel and lodging) which can be terminated at the coach's will?

Not all college players receive funds, and certainly, I doubt the majority get full rides. So, what is the difference? In both cases, the player is receiving compensation for performance that is not guaranteed to be renewed. And, BTW, quite a few collegiate SAs are involved in fund raising for their respective team, so that isn't anything new on this front.

Mike,

The argument is about players competing against the same level of players. College scholarship players playing against themselves. Private HS's playing against themselves. Public HS's playing against themselves. Travel teams playing against themselves.

I know that you are smart enough to understand the argument.

[crashsdaddy]

The argument is about players competing against the same level of players. College scholarship players playing against themselves. Private HS's playing against themselves. Public HS's playing against themselves. Travel teams playing against themselves.

I understand the point you're trying to make in Public HS vs Private HS. I just don't see it as a valid argument.

Do private schools recruit? Yes, some do but most do not. Do public schools recruit? Not as openly as private schools do but it does happen. Where I live, large PS's have around 4K students and can field varsity and JV teams packed with travel ball players while the typical private school struggles to field a varsity team. Even when a private school recruits it's still unlikely they are fielding teams made up only TB players.

Also, keep in mind that most private schools are about collage prep academics first, athletics second. The last thing a school's board of trusties wants is their school getting a reputation amongst collages for turning out sub-par students. As a result, it's rare that a recruited athlete is allowed into the school if she couldn't get accepted under pure academic reasons to begin with.

In the grad scheme of things, even when private schools recruit, they are still at a major disadvantage to pubic schools due to the student population. It's hard to imagine a private school with less than 350 HS students recruiting enough talent to go toe to toe with a public school that has 4000 HS students.

Just my opinion.

[jonriv]

Around here some of the private schools are in the same league as the public- most of the more "elite" private schools are not since they can not compete against even the smaller public schools. Some of the private schools have been accused of recruiting- but that is in basketball and football- softball is not even on the radar. On our HS league their are two out of 18 schools that are private.

[MTR]

Mike,

The argument is about players competing against the same level of players. College scholarship players playing against themselves. Private HS's playing against themselves. Public HS's playing against themselves. Travel teams playing against themselves.

I know that you are smart enough to understand the argument.

I am, but lets take this a little further.

Are there not HS associations in place in every instance of which you are aware that "manage" the competition among the HS?

Do they not create and apply a method to keep the playing fields as level as possible? Do they not develop and impose rules/regulations/codes that define and limit the level of recruiting and financial aid which may be provided a SA in order for them to participate?

Recently on the East Coast where a private school (Christian academy) was "caught" recruiting and providing tuition to out-of-area football players to attend their school. When confronted, the state association negotiated a settlement that allowed them the ego trip of developing a "national powerhouse" of a HS team and not be restricted by the assn's regulations. The allowance also eliminated that school's football team from taking part in any football championship play. All other rules applied as it pertained to membership, game rules and officiating.

This is the same place where the kid that Lane Kiffin told the 7th grader that he could come play at USC when he graduated and the press had a field day.

That congregation "sold" the academy and grounds, including the church, to a local Reformed Presbyterian church because they could no longer handle the debt a good part which was accrued by the athletic department and the lower enrollment due to the associated recruiting scandal. Being the good Christians they are, the new owner told the congregation that can use the church building for one year, rent free. The new owners have also squelched the notion of being a "nationwide powerhouse" of a football program and intend to combine the new property and school with their present academy.

My point is I don't think there is that much disparity between the public and private schools that it cannot be controled by the respective sanctioning associations.

[Sam]

Mike,

I only know my own area here in California, where 8 of the top 25 football teams in the state are private institutions with enrollments of 1,000 students and under. They are competing with public schools four times their size in enrollment, but with relatively few dollars to spend on their athletic programs.

Not as big a deal in softball.

[MTR]

Mike,

I only know my own area here in California,

Now, there is my issue I often raise on these boards. Just because something is a certain way in one's area doesn't mean that is the standard everywhere.

Perfect example is where a college player can participate:

Someone from CA/AZ/TX/FL: If they want to play, they can always play in the Women's or 23U program.
Someone from probably more than 60% of the rest of the country: But there is no Women's or 23U program!!!

Why is it when told that, there is usually no response or understanding?

People need to realize that their backyard is not a reflection of the world. If someone is making a particular statement, it isn't necessarily false just because it doesn't fit one's personal life or belief.

That said, maybe the pressure needs to be placed on CIF, AIA, UIL or whatever org. manages HS sports in your area to rein in those taking advantage of the lack of restrictions. For example, in some areas, any aid to a private school must be proven by the school to be going to someone who cannot afford the school, but had the grades to succeed. Sports cannot be a factor.

Then again, to demand that private schools only play private schools could put them out of the athletics business as there not enough schools available to convene a viable conference. And then you have the Christian schools that will not play the Catholic schools because.......well, I don't know why, but that has been an issue in some areas.

[AlwaysImprove]

Are you saying if someone has a better idea on how things could work, they should not bring it forward?

I am from Washington (not on your list). We are one of the smaller markets. We have a 23U team , and likely a second has now formed. They seem to have a lot of fun. The returning freshman like it way better than having to be on their last years select team with High School players. They were very proud of getting to hit of some great college pitching.

[jonriv]

It would be great if there were more 23u option available in this area, but there are not. I believe there are 2-3 currently in the entire state of CT. If there are ten in all of New England I would be surprised. In this area- 18u teams have always had some college players----PONY Nationals is full of those teams. Those teams without college players take great pride in beating those with!!!

[GIMNEPIWO]

Speaking 23U ... In VA, there may be 8 teams ... Usually about 4 Tournies a summer actually get played, 2 get canceled ... Mostly NSA ... South & West of here there is some 18 & over U-TRIP ... We saw only one 'out of state' team which came down from NJ last year ... We hope to find more action out of state next summer ... Most of the 23U gals are current or x-college players, but there are some that did not play after HS ...