1 year suspension for illegal bats

[AlwaysImprove]

I have talked both to people that have rolled bats and people that have purchased them. There is a pretty involved process to rolling. Knowing know how much pressure, how many times to run through the device and how you rotate the bat. Those rollers that know what they are doing claim they can roll a bat and it will be undetectable, visual inspection inside or outside from a well broken in bat.

Hot bat versus altered bat is what has stymied any workable enforcement to date.

I am not sure Sam's solution would work, you would have to prove that school and coaches somehow know that their actions are negligent.

[Sam]

I have talked both to people that have rolled bats and people that have purchased them. There is a pretty involved process to rolling. Knowing know how much pressure, how many times to run through the device and how you rotate the bat. Those rollers that know what they are doing claim they can roll a bat and it will be undetectable, visual inspection inside or outside from a well broken in bat.

Hot bat versus altered bat is what has stymied any workable enforcement to date.

I am not sure Sam's solution would work, you would have to prove that school and coaches somehow know that their actions are negligent.

I'm not sure where you think that negligence on the school/coach would need to present. The coach and player would be suspended if the bat exceeded max performance standards. No need to show that they were negligent. They broke the rules. They pay the price. If the coach and player's argument is with the bat company, they take it up in court. The bat company then proves that their bats don't improve with use and they have the testing and data to prove it...so the bat must have been altered.

[Sam]

So every school would have to test all of their bats before each game to make sure they haven't exceeded the standards? Uhm, OK. That is feasible.

sounds like heaven to me.

I don't want to go to your heaven

They could certainly choose not to test their bats or they could choose to purchase bats that they KNOW would never exceed the standard. You would think that the bat manufacturers woud be smart enough to design bats that would max out on the first use and not over time. That would ensure that people would purchase more bats sooner since the performance would degrade rather than upgrade.

[absdad]

Those rollers that know what they are doing claim they can roll a bat and it will be undetectable, visual inspection inside or outside from a well broken in bat.

Exactly. And if i read the previous post correctly, the vote failed to penalize teams/coaches/players whose bats that fail the performance test. So what's the point? Is the bat confiscated permanently, or put a rubber band on it and tell them not to use that bat? Sort of a joke if you ask me.

I am not sure Sam's solution would work, you would have to prove that school and coaches somehow know that their actions are negligent.

I think Sam's solution would work great. It would force Coaches and teams to police themselves. If you're a coach of a top D1 team, do you want to risk using that bat that is over the bar? If there's no penalty, then there is no risk.

[Tumblebug]

So every school would have to test all of their bats before each game to make sure they haven't exceeded the standards? Uhm, OK. That is feasible.

sounds like heaven to me.

I don't want to go to your heaven

They could certainly choose not to test their bats or they could choose to purchase bats that they KNOW would never exceed the standard. You would think that the bat manufacturers would be smart enough to design bats that would max out on the first use and not over time. That would ensure that people would purchase more bats sooner since the performance would degrade rather than upgrade.

Is there a list somewhere?

That list would not include ANY resin over fiber composite bat. In spite of ABI protocol, all resin over fiber structures break down in an impact environment and the conditions for improved performance happen on the way to failure.

A rolled bat can be detected through destructive testing. The consistency with which the materials break down from mechanical destruction (rolling) doesn't exist in a "natural" break-in process. So it is detectable but it involves several micro-sections, a powerful microscope and forensic analysis.

[3Bsnag]

I'm not sure where you think that negligence on the school/coach would need to present. The coach and player would be suspended if the bat exceeded max performance standards. No need to show that they were negligent. They broke the rules. They pay the price. If the coach and player's argument is with the bat company, they take it up in court. The bat company then proves that their bats don't improve with use and they have the testing and data to prove it...so the bat must have been altered.

Not even close to being fair for the players and very far fetched.

Again with the car comparison- Until you put a speedometer on my bat, I have to take the item given to me (or legally purchased) and use it to the best of my ability. You can test it all you want, but until you tell me otherwise, I'm using it.

Big picture is that there are going to be bats here and there that exceed 98. The problem that needs to be rectified is the teams who consistently have hot bats. People are beating around the bush, careful not to step on some big programs. It's OBVIOUS who should be sanctioned.

If machines are/stay calibrated in sync with the NCAA and bat manufacturers put serial numbers on all bats, colleges could submit their testing logs weekly and NCAA do spot testing. No one entity is out a ton of money and sanctions would be justified.

[Sam]

I'm not sure where you think that negligence on the school/coach would need to present. The coach and player would be suspended if the bat exceeded max performance standards. No need to show that they were negligent. They broke the rules. They pay the price. If the coach and player's argument is with the bat company, they take it up in court. The bat company then proves that their bats don't improve with use and they have the testing and data to prove it...so the bat must have been altered.

Not even close to being fair for the players and very far fetched.
Again with the car comparison- Until you put a speedometer on my bat, I have to take the item given to me (or legally purchased) and use it to the best of my ability. You can test it all you want, but until you tell me otherwise, I'm using it.

Big picture is that there are going to be bats here and there that exceed 98. The problem that needs to be rectified is the teams who consistently have hot bats. People are beating around the bush, careful not to step on some big programs. It's OBVIOUS who should be sanctioned.

If machines are/stay calibrated in sync with the NCAA and bat manufacturers put serial numbers on all bats, colleges could submit their testing logs weekly and NCAA do spot testing. No one entity is out a ton of money and sanctions would be justified.

Fair? Fair to whom? Is it fair to the pitchers, F3's and F5's who have to deal with the missiles coming off of these bats that exceed the maximum performance standards?

Big picture is that the composite bats that will get better with use will soon be relics.

[CheckWriter]

Until you put a speedometer on my bat

Sorry, if your speedo is off, you are going to get a speeding ticket and Honda is not going to reimburse you. That is probably why the car manufacturers do a pretty good job of having accurate speedos.

2nd, ignorance of the law, doesn't get you off the hook.

If the rule is there and you break it, you get the penalty. Pretty simple.

Wouldn't take long before bats complied, the ones that did would be the best sellers. Once everybody's did, then it would be back to feel, balance, sweet spot, or color (for the younger DDs anyway).

[Tumblebug]

Fair? Fair to whom? Is it fair to the pitchers, F3's and F5's who have to deal with the missiles coming off of these bats that exceed the maximum performance standards?

Big picture is that the composite bats that will get better with use will soon be relics.

Sam and I don't agree on the danger present. I see his point of view. I think there is a danger present but I think it lies in disclosure. The game is an at risk activity. That means the player participates in the activity knowing all of the risks present, whatever and wherever create that risk, are disclosed. If there is a rule that limits the performance of the equipment then the player's risk analysis is based on that limit. A ball hit beyond the limit is an undisclosed risk and therefore represents negligence or even endangerment on the part of somebody, hitter, coach, parent, manufacturer, etc. Whoever has prior knowledge and did not disclose that to the defense is suspect. The question is: who knows?

I suspect Sam's characterization of the big picture is prophetic.

[softballrulznut]

I know it's not the rolled bats that you all are talking about but I know the NCAA is really cracking down on this bat issue thing.

I talked to a Division II coach this weekend who was telling me that their school got a written warning for having a bat that was on the banned bat list....not because they used it in a game or because they even had it in the dugout. It was because they took it with them to an away tournament. They printed the updated list right before they left on their trip and were checking all their bats outside the dugout prior to playing once they got there. Found the bat - left it outside the dugout and were still given a written warning and threat that more serious penalties will come if they are caught with an illegal bat again this year.

I also observed at DII tournament this weekend and watched the umpiring crew check the bats of every team prior to their first game of the day all three days of the tournament.

While I think the warning was a little excessive I do believe it's a good thing they are really cracking down on these bats.