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PGF At large berth - Premier/Platinum

Questions and discussions involving PGF

by Battle » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:58 pm

UmpSteve wrote:No matter who is running the tournament, ASA, PGF, Triple Crown, USSSA, NSA, ISA; the hosts need to fill hotel rooms, and that means keeping teams in town more than just a few days. Chop off pool games, and you chop a full two days off any sizable tournament.

Yeah I understand why they do it. I just don't like it. :D

You bring up another interesting point. People griped about ASA being to long. Remember that? Go figure. :D
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by extiger » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:11 pm

One team in particular from Sacramento who received a Premier invite has not even come close to being competitive in a qualifier. I couldn't believe it when I saw them on the premier list. Many from NorCal are wondering the same thing.
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by BB2830 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:17 pm

What team from Nor Cal? How about first year 14U team or teams that received an invite before having played in anything or being competitive anywhere this season. I get those that qualified from 2013 but an invite to a 1st year 14U before any real play had taken place? Now that's a joke and all about being connected.
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by Battle » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:19 pm

extiger wrote:One team in particular from Sacramento who received a Premier invite has not even come close to being competitive in a qualifier. I couldn't believe it when I saw them on the premier list. Many from NorCal are wondering the same thing.

Maybe they bought in as a partner. :D
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by fontana10! » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:15 pm

Check out the 12u at large berths. Some of those teams having losing records in PGF. And some of those were flat out spankings. This is suppose to be the pinnacle of tournaments.
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by AlwaysImprove » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:37 pm

I think you guys have gotten off track a bit. If you think Premier was about one person, well you must have your head stuck so far in the sand. The whole sport basically moved over. Trust me, do not waste too much of your energy thinking they did it because of one person.

Most every high end coach back then was kind of done with ASA not listening to coaches. There were a few that were more let's see what develops, but most were pretty supportive of going a different direction. ASA was more than content in fueling coach vs coach disagreement to constantly justify their overly umpire focused approach. "See their, them coaches just cannot get along, well, whatta you gonna do?" "I guess we'll have to go to Johonson City for that huge table of samwiches they make."

Pool games are not and should not be about time in hotel rooms. It is about either 1) getting ready for the big show (pool games would count) or 2) additional opportunity to showcase kids (pool games would not count). Those two sides are always going to be in contention. In fact most people find themselves on both sides of this fence. As a Sophomore, DD was looking for any time she could to get in front of coaches in play. By summer of her Junior year, she was signed, and what do you know, we immediately thought it would be better use of pool play to prepare the team for competition.

Now you can say hey, looking there, there is no right answer, so you we have to have the tournament in Midland. But it turns out it is ok that there is not really a right answer to this problem. That you can still have a pretty great tournament in a place that is pretty easy to travel too. And you can still have active debate about how the tournament is structured, and be open minded to changes that appear to make the tournament stronger.

Talking to PGF guys, they get some money for hotel rooms, but they spend that same amount housing umpires, so net net it is a wash. I never get a sense that they are trying to have longer tournaments to maximize profit. That was common thinking from driven by the way tournaments were organized in ASA. In PGF, they can be more transparent and just raise team fees.

Anyway pDad's statement seems correct. The founders of PGF, all the big teams at that time felt having larger teams created stability in their ability to go to nationals year in and year out. The only way to do that was to have more than 15 players. The only way to do that was to have some value on your team for those subs. So they wanted to have pool play not count. (he never said ASA did not have pool play).

The problem is that umpires are just too removed from the motivations of the common parents, players and coaches that are playing the game. I am not a huge fan of the overly focus on recruiting in the game. But you cannot just ignore that recruiting is a part of the game. Removing umpires from the compromise portions of the equation, has allowed PGF to be more focused on what orgs, teams, coaches and players are looking for in the game. Turns out you can largely go out and hire some umpires, and do pretty good at it.

Softball was the only sport I knew of that was being run by their umpires. If your arguments 100% about rules or equipment rules etc. then that might make sense. But that is really only about 10% of the total view of the sport.
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by AlwaysImprove » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:47 pm

fontana10! wrote:Check out the 12u at large berths. Some of those teams having losing records in PGF. And some of those were flat out spankings. This is suppose to be the pinnacle of tournaments.

Take a moment, stop by and talk to one of the PGF board members. They can talk pretty openly about which teams are invited and why. Not saying it is a 100% perfect system. But they know tons and tons of coaches across the country. The teams that are getting invites are getting them because they seem to be in a running for making a strong team/organization. I know at the 18's, 16's and 14's invites are pretty heavily discussed before one is made.

I assume the same is happening at 10's and 12's. Since the teams/coaches and players are churning harder at that level it is going to be harder to get consistent information.
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by UmpSteve » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:01 pm

AlwaysImprove wrote:I think you guys have gotten off track a bit.

The problem is that umpires are just too removed from the motivations of the common parents, players and coaches that are playing the game. I am not a huge fan of the overly focus on recruiting in the game. But you cannot just ignore that recruiting is a part of the game. Removing umpires from the compromise portions of the equation, has allowed PGF to be more focused on what orgs, teams, coaches and players are looking for in the game. Turns out you can largely go out and hire some umpires, and do pretty good at it.

Softball was the only sport I knew of that was being run by their umpires. If your arguments 100% about rules or equipment rules etc. then that might make sense. But that is really only about 10% of the total view of the sport.


You seem overly concerned about an umpire actually having information about the game. At the time, I was also a voting member on the ASA National Council as a Player Rep, so I saw firsthand the thing I am speaking about, and watched the debates in the caucus meetings. I also attended several of the 18 Gold coaches' meeting; this is firsthand knowledge, despite me also being an umpire. Don't judge the book, read it first.
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by tbjd33 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:44 pm

BB2830 wrote:What team from Nor Cal? How about first year 14U team or teams that received an invite before having played in anything or being competitive anywhere this season. I get those that qualified from 2013 but an invite to a 1st year 14U before any real play had taken place? Now that's a joke and all about being connected.


That I agree with... A few in So Cal are just flat out not competitive and they received a birth. There are teams which didn't qualify for Premier much more competitive than a few which did get a birth. I'm not for an invite berth and feel unless it's a team qualifying from prior year in same division.

It is who you know...
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by AlwaysImprove » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:29 am

UmpSteve wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:I think you guys have gotten off track a bit.

The problem is that umpires are just too removed from the motivations of the common parents, players and coaches that are playing the game. I am not a huge fan of the overly focus on recruiting in the game. But you cannot just ignore that recruiting is a part of the game. Removing umpires from the compromise portions of the equation, has allowed PGF to be more focused on what orgs, teams, coaches and players are looking for in the game. Turns out you can largely go out and hire some umpires, and do pretty good at it.

Softball was the only sport I knew of that was being run by their umpires. If your arguments 100% about rules or equipment rules etc. then that might make sense. But that is really only about 10% of the total view of the sport.


You seem overly concerned about an umpire actually having information about the game. At the time, I was also a voting member on the ASA National Council as a Player Rep, so I saw firsthand the thing I am speaking about, and watched the debates in the caucus meetings. I also attended several of the 18 Gold coaches' meeting; this is firsthand knowledge, despite me also being an umpire. Don't judge the book, read it first.

Not overly concerned at all. I like umpires. I have umped myself. Name another major sport run by their umpires?
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