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PGF At large berth - Premier/Platinum

Questions and discussions involving PGF

by PDad » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:25 am

Battle wrote:
tbjd33 wrote:I agree it looks like births are passed out. I'm advocating shrinking the field in Premier leaving the remaining to fight in Platinum. I hate the pool play at Premier it's a waste of time. I'd like to see every game matter. I realize this isn't going to change, but it's interesting dialogue.

I agree. I've always hated the pool play. This has been one of the main gripes with ASA over the years. PGF has adopted just about everything from ASA except the rule set and I can't believe they kept pool play.

You need to review your ASA/PGF history. Having pool play not count was one of the points of contention when the PGF founders were playing ASA Gold. That was one of several changes ASA adopted AFTER PGF formed. The exclusion of college players was another one.
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by Coachred » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:37 am

Pool play games are a must. This is a format for ALL players to be exposed to college coaches. Otherwise as the other post mentioned, the non starters would be sitting the majority of the tourney. It's also nice to play a guaranteed 4-6 games.

With all that being said no one has put together a list of the top teams? Let's see what you think you know. Maybe a new thread with this topic?
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by tbjd33 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:18 am

Coachred wrote:Pool play games are a must. This is a format for ALL players to be exposed to college coaches. Otherwise as the other post mentioned, the non starters would be sitting the majority of the tourney. It's also nice to play a guaranteed 4-6 games.

With all that being said no one has put together a list of the top teams? Let's see what you think you know. Maybe a new thread with this topic?


This isn't about specific teams... It's about a National Championship tourney and who/how they allow a team in. This isn't a Showcase either. There are plants of those throughout the year. Why would anyone care about showcasing at a Natty? It's about the team and the trophy right? If your/my DD doesn't so be it!

All I'm saying is make it a true Natty from start to finish. It's should be the one tourney not about scholarships or showcasing just about the game...
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by AlwaysImprove » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:59 am

tbjd33 wrote:
Coachred wrote:Pool play games are a must. This is a format for ALL players to be exposed to college coaches. Otherwise as the other post mentioned, the non starters would be sitting the majority of the tourney. It's also nice to play a guaranteed 4-6 games.

With all that being said no one has put together a list of the top teams? Let's see what you think you know. Maybe a new thread with this topic?


This isn't about specific teams... It's about a National Championship tourney and who/how they allow a team in. This isn't a Showcase either. There are plants of those throughout the year. Why would anyone care about showcasing at a Natty? It's about the team and the trophy right? If your/my DD doesn't so be it!

All I'm saying is make it a true Natty from start to finish. It's should be the one tourney not about scholarships or showcasing just about the game...

Most coaches of top 50 teams, especially those on the PGF board, are going to disagree with you.

Your a Sophomore, number 2 pitcher on SoCal Thunder (Just throwing out a team name). Getting recruited by OU and Michigan. Number 1 pitcher is a UCLA recruit and probably one of the tops in the country. If pool play matters, you would definitely be better off moving to a team where you have chance of playing. So no one gets to have any subs. The top team in the country then is determined by the team that was lucky enough not to have a key player taken out by injury.

First off, IMHO coaches are making a huge mistake recruiting kids by watching them in games that do not matter (showcases). To me the sport would be more competitive if they would stop attending games that do not matter, and go to tournaments that have winners. Then put priority on players that are on the teams that are winning those tournaments.

There may be a way to compromise between the 2 sides. Have 4 pool games, and have 2 that matter and 2 that do not. I doubt given the thinking of the top 50 or so teams in the country and PGF board you will get to a point where all pool game matter.
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by tbjd33 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:51 am

A.I. not trying to change the world. Putting thoughts out there cause it would be nice to see a true Natty. I get the whole idea about recruiting. I understand why the pool play. Just to many meaningless games throughout the year. Why continue that thought process in the Premier. We play for one of the top Orgs n coach. I get it and we hear all about it.

Good stuff!
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by Coachred » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:16 pm

I definitely understand your thought process and don't disagree with it completely. As a coach I like the idea that we can play some games that don't mean much so that we can get some kids exposed. Most the top D1 colleges will be at this event and they aren't at most the other showcases in this abundance. This is a huge time for all these kids. I think that is why it is important. Outside of that I don't care for the showcase format as it gets boring and repetitive. You lose a bit of the competitive edge when you know nothing is on the line. It may be a good warm up though.
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by Battle » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:23 pm

PDad wrote:
Battle wrote:
tbjd33 wrote:I agree it looks like births are passed out. I'm advocating shrinking the field in Premier leaving the remaining to fight in Platinum. I hate the pool play at Premier it's a waste of time. I'd like to see every game matter. I realize this isn't going to change, but it's interesting dialogue.

I agree. I've always hated the pool play. This has been one of the main gripes with ASA over the years. PGF has adopted just about everything from ASA except the rule set and I can't believe they kept pool play.

You need to review your ASA/PGF history. Having pool play not count was one of the points of contention when the PGF founders were playing ASA Gold. That was one of several changes ASA adopted AFTER PGF formed. The exclusion of college players was another one.

How long has pool play been a part of ASA nationals?

Are you saying that ASA wasn't the biggest influence on the PGF founders when they formed PGF nationals?
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by UmpSteve » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:10 pm

PDad wrote:
Battle wrote:
tbjd33 wrote:I agree it looks like births are passed out. I'm advocating shrinking the field in Premier leaving the remaining to fight in Platinum. I hate the pool play at Premier it's a waste of time. I'd like to see every game matter. I realize this isn't going to change, but it's interesting dialogue.

I agree. I've always hated the pool play. This has been one of the main gripes with ASA over the years. PGF has adopted just about everything from ASA except the rule set and I can't believe they kept pool play.

You need to review your ASA/PGF history. Having pool play not count was one of the points of contention when the PGF founders were playing ASA Gold. That was one of several changes ASA adopted AFTER PGF formed. The exclusion of college players was another one.


While true, I don't believe this is 100% accurate. ASA changed every few years from pool games counting to seed (for the reasons stated here) to not counting as showcase (for the reasons stated here) and back again over the years. As this thread points out, there is no one absolute correct position that suits everyone, and ASA's huge voting body followed in waves whomever had the most current influence trying to read the crowd, but usually a few years late to move.

The PGF founders struck at the time when their prior influence had waned at ASA, and the number of unresolved issues without a true consensus made it easy to point out enough flaws in ASA to suggest letting someone else try to perfect the wheel. Let's be honest; at one time, no one person had more influence of the workings of ASA Gold than Gary Haning, in the ear of the then SoCal Commissioner as office 6 years as ASA President-Elect, then President, then Immediate Past President. Later administrations sought out new counsel, and GH's influence waned.
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by Battle » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Well since PDad wanted me to review, I wanted him to establish how long he thought ASA had pool play in general because it's as long as I can remember. My statement was about pool play in general whether they count or not. I hate pool play (period) at a national. That's just my opinion and I don't have to review that.
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by UmpSteve » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:49 pm

Battle wrote:Well since PDad wanted me to review, I wanted him to establish how long he thought ASA had pool play in general because it's as long as I can remember. My statement was about pool play in general whether they count or not. I hate pool play (period) at a national. That's just my opinion and I don't have to review that.


That position has also been included in the regular wrangling review of ASA pool play over the years, too. It has been rejected on the premise that teams simply wouldn't spend the time and money to travel to play a straight double elimination; and the added agreement that there would be smaller rosters and less available subs if the bottom of the roster saw minimal chance to participate.

No matter who is running the tournament, ASA, PGF, Triple Crown, USSSA, NSA, ISA; the hosts need to fill hotel rooms, and that means keeping teams in town more than just a few days. Chop off pool games, and you chop a full two days off any sizable tournament.
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