PGF 14U???..... vs ASA 14U

[AlwaysImprove]

all I can say is that from the experience at PGF this year. We played BB and FC in pool games and there were many scouts at the games. There were even some at our scrimmages when we played against other good teams. We did make sure that our girls had sent out letters to at least 25 coaches for each kid. So IMO playing those top tier teams helps you get scouts to come watch the games, even if you are not that well known. And hopefully someone gets on the radar just from being seen while playing those top tier teams.

Exactly my point. When PGF reduced the number of teams to a reasonable number, and tightened the schedule, now coaches can fly in for 3 or 4 days and see a lot of relevant ball.

[Battle]

This is what you said... with my response...

Yet another problem with ASA allowing their tournament to bloat. Coaches tend to not go to pool games or the first round of these ginourmous tournaments. They wait until after the first round of elimination, pop into town and leave the following day.

That's not true and you know it.

I was actually giving you the benefit of doubt that you was promoting a PGF biased statement knowing it wasn't COMPLETELY true. Then you said this..

Actually it is true, and I do know it. 16U college station. After pool play and first round of elimination a large number of coaches that we had not been seeing showed up at our game.

So, now I'm actually believing that you believe your statement is true. THEN you say this...

Do you think recruiting coaches actually watch a game between the Richmond Ruckus Elite and the West Windsor Wildcats? Or, perhaps maybe they optimize their time, and watch games that have teams that matter to them.

AND this...

Now further, go watch a pool game BB Myer game at 16U nationals in College Station 2 years ago, when they are playing a no name team. A few college coaches were there. Then go watch BB Meyer when they play Corona Angels, or some other great team. You will not get a seat.

Now what sense would it make for coaches to fly in on Thurs and leave on Fri when the better teams will actually be playing on Sat and Sun? As I said, your statement is not true and you know it. I'm not saying a coach didn't tell you that but what sane person would believe it?

Another question...How many unearned berths did PGF give out this year?

[AlwaysImprove]

This is what you said... with my response...

Yet another problem with ASA allowing their tournament to bloat. Coaches tend to not go to pool games or the first round of these ginourmous tournaments. They wait until after the first round of elimination, pop into town and leave the following day.

That's not true and you know it.

I was actually giving you the benefit of doubt that you was promoting a PGF biased statement knowing it wasn't COMPLETELY true. Then you said this..

Actually it is true, and I do know it. 16U college station. After pool play and first round of elimination a large number of coaches that we had not been seeing showed up at our game.

So, now I'm actually believing that you believe your statement is true. THEN you say this...

Do you think recruiting coaches actually watch a game between the Richmond Ruckus Elite and the West Windsor Wildcats? Or, perhaps maybe they optimize their time, and watch games that have teams that matter to them.

AND this...

Now further, go watch a pool game BB Myer game at 16U nationals in College Station 2 years ago, when they are playing a no name team. A few college coaches were there. Then go watch BB Meyer when they play Corona Angels, or some other great team. You will not get a seat.

Now what sense would it make for coaches to fly in on Thurs and leave on Fri when the better teams will actually be playing on Sat and Sun? As I said, your statement is not true and you know it. I'm not saying a coach didn't tell you that but what sane person would believe it?

Another question...How many unearned berths did PGF give out this year?

Sorry, I lost your logic. A coach did say it. I give you full permission to believe it or not.

On the berths, I believe the formula you are looking for is:
#of PGF berths given out X 10 < # ASA berths given out
Do you think there will be any free 18 gold berths for PGF next year? I know a couple of teams that bet on different qualifiers, they will be more careful this year to make sure qualifiers are attended.

[Battle]

Now what sense would it make for coaches to fly in on Thurs and leave on Fri when the better teams will actually be playing on Sat and Sun? As I said, your statement is not true and you know it. I'm not saying a coach didn't tell you that but what sane person would believe it's the norm?

Sorry, I lost your logic. A coach did say it. I give you full permission to believe it or not.

Thank you for the permission. That's very kind of you. I fixed it so that maybe the logic makes more sense to you.

Another question...How many unearned berths did PGF give out this year?

On the berths, I believe the formula you are looking for is:
#of PGF berths given out X 10 < # ASA berths given out

I don't believe that I asked for a formula but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, lets just pick a round number of 10. Why would PGF give any free berths if they are so profoundly against ASA's money grab? That would reduce the 14s down to about 30 teams so why didn't PGF go with that?

Do you think there will be any free 18 gold berths for PGF next year? I know a couple of teams that bet on different qualifiers, they will be more careful this year to make sure qualifiers are attended.

I can only say this...I'm not against doing away with all free berths for 18's. You either qualify every year or you don't play. I know that could get complicated.

[AlwaysImprove]

I already believed it was a common practice, before the coach said anything. This appeared to be the approach of many of the bigger more nationally competitive schools. I never said it was the norm. Furthermore, reduce the number of teams and tighten the schedule and this practice goes away.

Invite berths are gone already. They were a two year deal. You will have to keep up.

I do not think giving 3 teams to take you from 63 to 66 is the same as giving 45 berths to take you from to 120 to 165. See the latter is a money grab.

PGF seemed to be trying to get some deserving teams a chance to play. Those teams choose the Colorado qualifier and the Northwest qualifier, and both of those qualifiers ended up being very competitive. Then you had a couple of qualifiers that ended up without teams. So they took those extra berths and gave them to those very committed teams. Gary has already said they will take a look at the east coast qualifiers.

I happen to know a couple of the teams that ended up in this situation. One finished 9th and one finished 13th. Both very respectable finishes.

For me this discussion is interesting. You seem to have to go so far out of your way to make ASA seem like it is not that far off PGF. I mean 45 handout berths is the same as 3? Then when the straw in your strawman unwinds, you go to the "no berths should be given out, at all, if they are so good". Please.

Look I am a bigger fan of ASA than anyone. I like everyone I know at ASA. I do not think anyone has done what they did to nationals out of an evil thought or approach. They are all super nice guys and very committed to their aspect of the sport. All of the ASA guys I know clearly are not getting rich off of ASA.

I think they did get caught up in a bit of a ponzi scheme. They enjoyed getting the umpire training sessions in large free conference rooms, some umpire dinners/drinks, some free rooms. A few savvy towns figured that out, and learned to take advantage of the system. At a direct cost to teams and parents.

ASA will eventually realize that their current position is not great and head back to the core of what they should be about, softball. Building, developing and promoting the sport of softball. Less about big organizational meetings, voting structures, self important meetings and money. As that happens they will become relevant again.

[CFBFAN]

Battle
maybe you can answer a question that no one else has been able to.
Why did teams play in the eastern (or anywhere for that matter) PGF qualifiers and earn thier berths and decide not to go?
I am sure that money is an issue, or did they just play because it was something to do that weekend?
this year should be different, I hope, because only a limited # of teams get returning berths, so many more teams have to qualify to play.
I thank both you and AI for your input.

[Battle]

Battle
maybe you can answer a question that no one else has been able to.
Why did teams play in the eastern (or anywhere for that matter) PGF qualifiers and earn thier berths and decide not to go?
I am sure that money is an issue, or did they just play because it was something to do that weekend?
this year should be different, I hope, because only a limited # of teams get returning berths, so many more teams have to qualify to play.
I thank both you and AI for your input.

Our sights were set on qualifying and attending ASA. That was our main goal. The PGF qualifiers were just a warm up for ASA whether we qualified or not. PGF qualifiers may have teams that have already qualified for ASA so therefore can't enter another ASA qualifier without giving up their berth. I have no facts to support that so it's just a suggestion. IMO, it's just a matter of what nationals do teams plan on attending. ASA or PGF? Teams will enter both qualifiers for the competition but still plan on attending their nationals. JMO

[AlwaysImprove]

Battle
maybe you can answer a question that no one else has been able to.
Why did teams play in the eastern (or anywhere for that matter) PGF qualifiers and earn thier berths and decide not to go?
I am sure that money is an issue, or did they just play because it was something to do that weekend?
this year should be different, I hope, because only a limited # of teams get returning berths, so many more teams have to qualify to play.
I thank both you and AI for your input.

Our sights were set on qualifying and attending ASA. That was our main goal. The PGF qualifiers were just a warm up for ASA whether we qualified or not. PGF qualifiers may have teams that have already qualified for ASA so therefore can't enter another ASA qualifier without giving up their berth. I have no facts to support that so it's just a suggestion. IMO, it's just a matter of what nationals do teams plan on attending. ASA or PGF? Teams will enter both qualifiers for the competition but still plan on attending their nationals. JMO

In ASA, under current version of code, you can compete in ASA National Qualifiers even if you already have a berth. That applies to everyone except Gold.

Article 513 National Qualifier Tournaments
Subsection M. Previously Qualified. Junior Olympic Teams which have previously qualified for a National Championship Final may compete in other National Qualifiers. If a previously qualified team wins another berth from a National Qualifier, the highest finishing team without a berth will qualify.

[Battle]

I already believed it was a common practice, before the coach said anything. This appeared to be the approach of many of the bigger more nationally competitive schools. I never said it was the norm. Furthermore, reduce the number of teams and tighten the schedule and this practice goes away.

For me this discussion is interesting. You seem to have to go so far out of your way to make ASA seem like it is not that far off PGF. I mean 45 handout berths is the same as 3? Then when the straw in your strawman unwinds, you go to the "no berths should be given out, at all, if they are so good". Please.

What is the difference in “common practice” and the “norm”? C'mon, you're splitting hairs now. You said coaches pop in and pop out just after the 1st round of eliminations begin which means that they are not there when the best teams actually start playing each other. Then, you say coaches only want to watch the good teams play each other and don't care about watching the lower competitive teams and you call my approach “strawman”? You want to convey the massage that competitive colleges only stay for a couple of days at ASA and 3 to 4 days at PGF. That may be true for PGF but is absolutely false if you're saying that it's “common practice” at ASA.

As far as “no berths should be given out”, I was only talking about 18s. Lower ages should have them IMO. More teams means more kids and more kids means more kids for colleges to look at. I understand the reducing the number of teams and I agree as I have said in the past but not down to 60. IMO it would lose the national feel and give it more of a showcase feel.

If you had 63 teams already, why would you award 3 unearned berths to make a 66 team field? I'm not comparing that to ASA, I know they give more berths but why would you give any if you are going to accuse ASA of money grabbing even if it is on a tiny scale? That's a bit of a money grab in itself. Isn't it?

[Battle]

Battle
maybe you can answer a question that no one else has been able to.
Why did teams play in the eastern (or anywhere for that matter) PGF qualifiers and earn thier berths and decide not to go?
I am sure that money is an issue, or did they just play because it was something to do that weekend?
this year should be different, I hope, because only a limited # of teams get returning berths, so many more teams have to qualify to play.
I thank both you and AI for your input.

Our sights were set on qualifying and attending ASA. That was our main goal. The PGF qualifiers were just a warm up for ASA whether we qualified or not. PGF qualifiers may have teams that have already qualified for ASA so therefore can't enter another ASA qualifier without giving up their berth. I have no facts to support that so it's just a suggestion. IMO, it's just a matter of what nationals do teams plan on attending. ASA or PGF? Teams will enter both qualifiers for the competition but still plan on attending their nationals. JMO

In ASA, under current version of code, you can compete in ASA National Qualifiers even if you already have a berth. That applies to everyone except Gold.

Article 513 National Qualifier Tournaments
Subsection M. Previously Qualified. Junior Olympic Teams which have previously qualified for a National Championship Final may compete in other National Qualifiers. If a previously qualified team wins another berth from a National Qualifier, the highest finishing team without a berth will qualify.

CFBFAN:
AI is correct. My suggestion would only apply to Gold. So it's just a matter of what/where your team's goal is for nationals IMO. When setting a team's goal, I'm sure expenses play a huge part in that decision. If you're planning to go to ASA and you have already qualified or have a free wkend and there is a PGF qualifier that weekend that's close to you, then why not play the PGF qualifier if it's competitive enough for you? Again, JMO.