PGF 2011 - Review and Discussion

[Battle]

Anon:

I will tell you the reason for my silliness (yes I read your deleted post). Before these naïve out of state teams decided to venture to your state and play PGF, they need to know the whole story in which you will never tell because it is to your best interest to keep it in CA. Fact is...weather is good but location sucks and competition is not that much better than ASA. These are the things that people need to know before making the decision as to which Nats to attend. PGF actually did you more harm than good IMO as to who is the better teams.
People has tried to tell you what would make PGF better from an out of state point of view but of course your SoCal arrogant attitudes will not let you listen. As I said before, LOCATION SUCKS for most of the teams that will attend other than the west. That is no different than what you guys are complaining about when it comes to ASA. Taking the attitude of “ well ASA did it to us so we are doing it back” will never make you better than “the other guys”. Judging from these previous posts, the tournament was not as well run as ASA is and that is a big minus for you.
I would like to see ASA drop some teams from Nats and hold a smaller tournament also so you do have a point there. I would not mind ASA holding more Nats out west closer to you guys so another point made. Point is, ASA is still top dog and PGF is the lesser of the two trying to promote their sanction with the use of CA teams but you come off as arrogant and conceded, who thinks if CA says it then it must be true when it comes to fastpitch. I really could care less if PGF succeeds or fails in their quest but if you are going to tell it...tell it all.

[Battle]

Before these naïve out of state teams decided to venture to your state and play PGF, they need to know the whole story in which you will never tell because it is to your best interest to keep it in CA. Fact is...weather is good but location sucks and competition is not that much better than ASA.

May I ask why you feel the location "sucks"

I don't think is sucks so much as someone traveling from the Eastern US would. That was the point I was trying to make. We would travel there, no problem but we are central US per se.

[Battle]

Again, then please quantify why it would suck from the East. Is it just distance that is a factor because flying into SoCal certainly is not difficult or as costly as some less traveled destinations.

I would say yes, it is about distance when it is a head to head with ASA if ASA is closer or more central based. I do agree that it is just as far for you guys to travel to TN as it is for TN people to travel to you but some might not look at it that way even though you have a strong case to such. I really don't know what to do about it but IMO just "competition is better" will not be enough for the years to come. I could be wrong so it's JMO.

[J Fierce]

Battle, your still on this ASA vs Premier kick? Dude seriously...let it go!
It's all subjective anyway.

[Fifteen's]

OK Force '94? They were knocked into the losers bracket 0-11 by a solid SoCal team that was not highly rated and almost all 96s. I think the higher-rated PGF teams would have fared well against them too.

Yeah, you are correct. I don't know what happened to Force. I don't see the Cruisers beating them on a consistent basis like that. I disagree with the last part. IMO Force would have held their own against the top PGF teams. They handled the 2nd and 3rd place finisher at the HOF and both of those teams beat Glory to put them in 4th.

Who was the 3rd place finisher? HOF was in June and teams peak at different times. OK Force was probably better prepared to play in June than teams from states that play HS ball in the Spring.
I don't remember the 3rd place finisher but it happened. So now you're saying that Glory came to the HOF with a weaker team than when they went to PGF or Force was just better prepared? Nope...Both came to the HOF and one got 4th while the other got 1st. That's the bottom line. Anything else is a presumption.

The Lasers made a commendable run through the losers bracket, but they didn't face much competition down there. Name a strong team they beat.

NE Sizzle, Tx Aces, Tx Bombers were all strong.

The last 2 teams they beat to finish 5th, Sizzle and Bombers, were relatively strong. Were they considered contenders to win it all beforehand?
Prior to this year, it was possible for a solid team to finish 9th in ASA/USA Nats by virtue of a favorable draw. I'd say the weaker field this year, due to PGF, changed that to 7th and possibly even 5th.
That's stating the obvious again. Anybody knows that if the teams all played one Nats, then the competition level rises. The same is also true for PGF as with ASA.

You can't determine the relative strength of teams strictly on the final order of finish. Cases in point:
- CA Cruisers beat OK Force '94 11-0, yet they finished lower (17th and 9th respectively). ...

In the ASA HOF the Rockers beat OK Force 94 13-4 which put Force in the loser bracket. In the championship game, OK Force beat the Rockers 11-4 and then again 11-7. Now since the Rockers beat Force so bad in the first game, if order of finish doesn't matter, does that mean that the Rockers are a better team?

No, the 1-2 head-to-head record would indicate otherwise, more so than the order of finish (note: there was a better argument to be made with your example, but you missed making it).
Well I'm certainly glad you pointed out me missing something. Just another +1 for ASA. I stated the example that I wanted. By your own admission you said that finishes doesn't matter. I say it's the only thing that matters and it sure matters more than individual scores. Your fairly strong SoCal team barely cracked the top 20 while Force made the Top 10. You proved my point more than I did.

I'm not saying PGF was definitely stronger than ASA - they both had strong teams. I'm just saying you can't rate ASA as having a better field of teams.

And...PGF can't rate their Nats as having the best teams because it's held in CA. That seems to be the norm here. In your opinion, am I really that far off base?

You provide useful info about the southern and midwestern teams because you're more familiar with them, but you don't really have a basis to evaluate the SoCal teams that played PGF.
Neither ASA nor PGF will draw all the top teams as long as both draw a desirable group of college coaches and PGF stays in SoCal. The biggest difference between the two is PGF's field of teams is highly concentrated in talent and their weakest team is at worst an average ASA team. BTW, Coach Hutchins (Mich.) was at PGF and I heard her call the 170+ teams in Chattanooga "crazy."

One of your weakest team didn't qualify for either ASA nor PGF so your example of worst PGF being avg at ASA has no merit. You admitted that most of the strong Socal teams are even with Glory in the rankings, so that would put them ranked around 6th or 7th at ASA at best. I understand that you had college coaches at PGF but ASA had coaches also. Ask them why they didn't go to PGF and they would say...why go to a showcase when I can go to the real National that has been held for years and proven to be the most competitive.

How you can say this, I have no idea! This is subjective, at best. I will tell you this. A very good TNL team went to ASA and won it fairly easily, losing only one game by a run or two. That same team is good but not necessarily the best team from So Cal. Now, you could make the argument that they won ASA States. But, the following PGF teams did not even do states:

Firecrackers Blanco, Corona Angels, So Cal Athletics, Bat Busters Doug, and Renegades Fox.

The TNL team that won ASA is on par, at best, with these teams. I think your argument early on was that ASA had the better competition. Anyone that has half a brain realizes that is not the case. At the end of the day it is all subjective and some of the stuff you utter is, like I said earlier, nonsensical!

Case in point:

Before these naïve out of state teams decided to venture to your state and play PGF, they need to know the whole story in which you will never tell because it is to your best interest to keep it in CA. Fact is...weather is good but location sucks and competition is not that much better than ASA.

May I ask why you feel the location "sucks"

I don't think is sucks so much as someone traveling from the Eastern US would. That was the point I was trying to make. We would travel there, no problem but we are central US per se.

Again, then please quantify why it would suck from the East. Is it just distance that is a factor because flying into SoCal certainly is not difficult or as costly as some less traveled destinations.

You say one thing, then back pedal and say something different?! Like I said, nonsensical!

Again, then please quantify why it would suck from the East. Is it just distance that is a factor because flying into SoCal certainly is not difficult or as costly as some less traveled destinations.

I would say yes, it is about distance when it is a head to head with ASA if ASA is closer or more central based. I do agree that it is just as far for you guys to travel to TN as it is for TN people to travel to you but some might not look at it that way even though you have a strong case to such. I really don't know what to do about it but IMO just "competition is better" will not be enough for the years to come. I could be wrong so it's JMO.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, despite the lack of grammar. Whether someone is flying in from an hour away or five hours away, as long as it isn't more costly, what does it matter. Especially if wanting to play the "best competition". Obviously that will be subjective, and I have not seen anyone, including you, make the argument for ASA.

I guess at the end of the day it is like arguing with a crazy person the merits of them being crazy! You will never win that argument!

[Fifteen's]

Another point I forgot to make in the last post is how can anyone make an argument to the point, So Cal as a location "Sucks"?! Name a better locale that ASA has used in the last.................EVER!





Clue...............there isn't one!


I'm sure there have been some nice ones. But, I can't see this as an argument point for ASA over PGF...........just sayin.

[Battle]

OK Force '94? They were knocked into the losers bracket 0-11 by a solid SoCal team that was not highly rated and almost all 96s. I think the higher-rated PGF teams would have fared well against them too.

Yeah, you are correct. I don't know what happened to Force. I don't see the Cruisers beating them on a consistent basis like that. I disagree with the last part. IMO Force would have held their own against the top PGF teams. They handled the 2nd and 3rd place finisher at the HOF and both of those teams beat Glory to put them in 4th.

Who was the 3rd place finisher? HOF was in June and teams peak at different times. OK Force was probably better prepared to play in June than teams from states that play HS ball in the Spring.
I don't remember the 3rd place finisher but it happened. So now you're saying that Glory came to the HOF with a weaker team than when they went to PGF or Force was just better prepared? Nope...Both came to the HOF and one got 4th while the other got 1st. That's the bottom line. Anything else is a presumption.

The Lasers made a commendable run through the losers bracket, but they didn't face much competition down there. Name a strong team they beat.

NE Sizzle, Tx Aces, Tx Bombers were all strong.

The last 2 teams they beat to finish 5th, Sizzle and Bombers, were relatively strong. Were they considered contenders to win it all beforehand?
Prior to this year, it was possible for a solid team to finish 9th in ASA/USA Nats by virtue of a favorable draw. I'd say the weaker field this year, due to PGF, changed that to 7th and possibly even 5th.
That's stating the obvious again. Anybody knows that if the teams all played one Nats, then the competition level rises. The same is also true for PGF as with ASA.

You can't determine the relative strength of teams strictly on the final order of finish. Cases in point:
- CA Cruisers beat OK Force '94 11-0, yet they finished lower (17th and 9th respectively). ...

In the ASA HOF the Rockers beat OK Force 94 13-4 which put Force in the loser bracket. In the championship game, OK Force beat the Rockers 11-4 and then again 11-7. Now since the Rockers beat Force so bad in the first game, if order of finish doesn't matter, does that mean that the Rockers are a better team?

No, the 1-2 head-to-head record would indicate otherwise, more so than the order of finish (note: there was a better argument to be made with your example, but you missed making it).
Well I'm certainly glad you pointed out me missing something. Just another +1 for ASA. I stated the example that I wanted. By your own admission you said that finishes doesn't matter. I say it's the only thing that matters and it sure matters more than individual scores. Your fairly strong SoCal team barely cracked the top 20 while Force made the Top 10. You proved my point more than I did.

I'm not saying PGF was definitely stronger than ASA - they both had strong teams. I'm just saying you can't rate ASA as having a better field of teams.

And...PGF can't rate their Nats as having the best teams because it's held in CA. That seems to be the norm here. In your opinion, am I really that far off base?

You provide useful info about the southern and midwestern teams because you're more familiar with them, but you don't really have a basis to evaluate the SoCal teams that played PGF.
Neither ASA nor PGF will draw all the top teams as long as both draw a desirable group of college coaches and PGF stays in SoCal. The biggest difference between the two is PGF's field of teams is highly concentrated in talent and their weakest team is at worst an average ASA team. BTW, Coach Hutchins (Mich.) was at PGF and I heard her call the 170+ teams in Chattanooga "crazy."

One of your weakest team didn't qualify for either ASA nor PGF so your example of worst PGF being avg at ASA has no merit. You admitted that most of the strong Socal teams are even with Glory in the rankings, so that would put them ranked around 6th or 7th at ASA at best. I understand that you had college coaches at PGF but ASA had coaches also. Ask them why they didn't go to PGF and they would say...why go to a showcase when I can go to the real National that has been held for years and proven to be the most competitive.

How you can say this, I have no idea! This is subjective, at best. I will tell you this. A very good TNL team went to ASA and won it fairly easily, losing only one game by a run or two. That same team is good but not necessarily the best team from So Cal. Now, you could make the argument that they won ASA States. But, the following PGF teams did not even do states:

Firecrackers Blanco, Corona Angels, So Cal Athletics, Bat Busters Doug, and Renegades Fox.

The TNL team that won ASA is on par, at best, with these teams. I think your argument early on was that ASA had the better competition. Anyone that has half a brain realizes that is not the case. At the end of the day it is all subjective and some of the stuff you utter is, like I said earlier, nonsensical!

Case in point:

Before these naïve out of state teams decided to venture to your state and play PGF, they need to know the whole story in which you will never tell because it is to your best interest to keep it in CA. Fact is...weather is good but location sucks and competition is not that much better than ASA.

May I ask why you feel the location "sucks"

I don't think is sucks so much as someone traveling from the Eastern US would. That was the point I was trying to make. We would travel there, no problem but we are central US per se.

Again, then please quantify why it would suck from the East. Is it just distance that is a factor because flying into SoCal certainly is not difficult or as costly as some less traveled destinations.

You say one thing, then back pedal and say something different?! Like I said, nonsensical!

Again, then please quantify why it would suck from the East. Is it just distance that is a factor because flying into SoCal certainly is not difficult or as costly as some less traveled destinations.

I would say yes, it is about distance when it is a head to head with ASA if ASA is closer or more central based. I do agree that it is just as far for you guys to travel to TN as it is for TN people to travel to you but some might not look at it that way even though you have a strong case to such. I really don't know what to do about it but IMO just "competition is better" will not be enough for the years to come. I could be wrong so it's JMO.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, despite the lack of grammar. Whether someone is flying in from an hour away or five hours away, as long as it isn't more costly, what does it matter. Especially if wanting to play the "best competition". Obviously that will be subjective, and I have not seen anyone, including you, make the argument for ASA.

I guess at the end of the day it is like arguing with a crazy person the merits of them being crazy! You will never win that argument!

Well since all these posters feel the need to use “subjective and speculation” when describing the ASA vs PGF competition, we should never have to read someone from PGF promoting on the basis of having the better competition because all of you have made it plain that it's just not true.

As far as my bad grammar and being crazy, please don't tell anyone...It might hurt my last one and only feeling.

Now don't you have a Texas thread to stalk?

[Battle]

Another point I forgot to make in the last post is how can anyone make an argument to the point, So Cal as a location "Sucks"?! Name a better locale that ASA has used in the last.................EVER!





Clue...............there isn't one!


I'm sure there have been some nice ones. But, I can't see this as an argument point for ASA over PGF...........just sayin.

Keep talking...You'll talk yourself into it one day. To be or not to be...there have been...there has never been...

[AM Softball]

The bottom line is PGF had the best weather and competition and anyone that argues that is just wrong (you may have a different opinion but you're wrong). If 40% of the teams were from Cali, great because overall, the best softball is played in Cali. Anyone that truly knows softball, knows that. Not because we think we're all that but because of the amount of people, teams, and the dynamics of playing here. We've had that debate before and anyone that knows softball, knows that at Nationals, there should be a majority of teams from Cali if you want the best teams in attendance.

There may have been "some" coaches at ASA but the top college coaches and most of the head coaches were at PGF. Bottom line. Why do you think that thy were at PGF if all of the best teams were at ASA? So the college coaches don't know what they are doing either? hmmmm Also, I talk to TONS of college coaches and not one said they would have rather have been at a "National Tournament" like the ASA format...not one. They all said, we're going to Premier because the best players are there. Many of the top teams didn't even send one coach to ASA. That says a lot about what they thought.

[CatWoman]

BatBusters Myers won both PGF and ASA Nationals in 2010 when a 16s team could still compete in both. Every year that dd attended an ASA Nationals, the weather was a factor - either excessive heat or rain that caused numerous delays. The fact is that PGF in Huntington Beach is much more comfortable for the girls to play in than other excessively hot spots in the country in August. I don't know of any parent who wasn't happy having their dd play there as opposed to somewhere else where it was extremely hot and humid. I heard of a couple of 18s teams this year that did not try to qualify for PGF based on when their school year was starting and they chose to go to ASA instead. That was a good choice for them. In the long run, does it really matter? The fact is that PGF is an extremely good product whether you like it or not. I believe that there is enough room in softball for Premier and ASA Nationals to co-exist. Unless the dates are scheduled so they do not conflict, teams will need to make a choice and go to the one where it fits their girls' school schedules, pocket books, and where they have a decent chance of doing well. Having a choice is a good thing.