PGF v. ASA

[ssarge]

I actually took the top 23 teams in order of finish from from Aurora fireworks and the top 25 teams from Independence day. I also threw in two teams from Sparkler like Team North Florida that had shown to be good over the year. I do not have the list in front of me any more, but I posted the numbers and the list of teams here. It was 2 to 48 or 3 to 47. It is easy to recreate the numbers, just grab a list of the teams from Fireworks, Independence day, the list from PGF and the list from ASA.

I wasn't questioning your numbers or conclusions. I know you researched it.

Colorado features tournaments that teams would like to win - no doubt. And you have to be VERY good to win there.

That said, they ARE exposure tournaments, and especially at the Gold level, some teams have different priorities. There was some Junior National stuff going on too, as I recall.

The conclusions is right, though. The better teams were at PGF, and that will be even more true this year. For reasons previously articulated.

Best regards,

Scott

[MavFan]

The Houston Qualifier may have been weakly attended by 14U, but the 16u and 18u was loaded with strong competition, especially since ASA 16A and ASA Reg 7 Gold Qualifiers were both also going on in Tx. There were 27 teams in 16U and 36 in 18U at the Houston Premier Qualifier and the teams that Qualified are teams most people know as stronger teams.

I somewhat disagree with the level of competition at the 18 HS division in Houston. Several of the top teams in the area chose to go to the Gold qualifier in College Station. Sudden Impact, Glory Adkins, Tx Peppers, Tx Bombers, FW Batbusters, and both Houston Power teams. Those teams, in addition to Tx Impact and Tx Magic were much better than most of the teams that qualified at the PGF qualifier in Houston.

With all due respect to the Kaos team that qualified at PGF, they wouldn't have finished in the top 15 in College Station Gold qualifier.

[ontheblack]

At 18G its a different ball game. Many of girls are not playing for anything as they have already been signed or verballed.

At 14s, the girls still like the travel. Regardless though, someone has to travel somewhere, and PGF has said that it will not always be in HB, so those SoCal coaches who no longer want to travel anywhere will have to adjust their attitudes a bit, unless PGF decides to keep it based in SoCal.

[AlwaysImprove]

At 18G its a different ball game. Many of girls are not playing for anything as they have already been signed or verballed.

At 14s, the girls still like the travel. Regardless though, someone has to travel somewhere, and PGF has said that it will not always be in HB, so those SoCal coaches who no longer want to travel anywhere will have to adjust their attitudes a bit, unless PGF decides to keep it based in SoCal.

I do not think it was ever about travel. From our area we have to travel every year, PGF, ASA whatever.

The problem with ASA became Location and Time required.

Locations they select are absolutely miserable. The ASA process almost guarantees bad locations will win the bids, they are the only ones that have the empty rooms, filling them affords them the $'s to win the bid. Seattle held nationals one year, it was next to impossible to get any local hotel or tourism to even care. All the locations for ASA have one thing in common, no one wants to be there in August.

Time required, taking the tournament from what was a 5 day reasonable amount of time to 10/11 day drip drip format they are now using has three problems. First is overall cost more than doubles. Second is the format moves all the games to the backend, any rain during any part of the tournament they cut double elim, cut brackets down, wreck the tournament out. Third is the additional 6 days missed from work. All very very expensive. All at a time when the economy is in the toilet and bosses are demanding that parents work 2x for 1/2 the pay and asking them to skip their vacations.

Coaches have provided this feedback to ASA on a regular and consistent basis.

[ontheblack]

AI, I dont disagree with a single thing you wrote. No one can argue the fact that ASA has wrecked a good thing out of greed. PGF, I believe, is trying very hard to put on an event that makes sense to ALL involved. I get that, I appreciate it, and I truly hope they pull it off.

My problem is that some insist on making this black and white and its not, mostly due to the differences between divisions. 18Gold is not 14U. With some exceptions, the mindset is different for all involved - coaches, kids, parents. So the facts about 18 doesnt mean anything at 14s. If not, there would have been no need to change course and invite 14u teams.

I am not a critic of PGF. With a little luck, my kid will playing HB at the end of July. However I'm not yet ready to order a pitcher of kool-aid. I think that a mindset that continually challenges PGF serves everyone better. Call it accountability, call it bitching, whatever you like, but it brought Dan and Gary out into a public forum they both probably despise, but it demonstrated that PGF is willing to address concerns and complaints, and ASA will not.

[AlwaysImprove]

AI, I dont disagree with a single thing you wrote. No one can argue the fact that ASA has wrecked a good thing out of greed. PGF, I believe, is trying very hard to put on an event that makes sense to ALL involved. I get that, I appreciate it, and I truly hope they pull it off.

My problem is that some insist on making this black and white and its not, mostly due to the differences between divisions. 18Gold is not 14U. With some exceptions, the mindset is different for all involved - coaches, kids, parents. So the facts about 18 doesnt mean anything at 14s. If not, there would have been no need to change course and invite 14u teams.

I am not a critic of PGF. With a little luck, my kid will playing HB at the end of July. However I'm not yet ready to order a pitcher of kool-aid. I think that a mindset that continually challenges PGF serves everyone better. Call it accountability, call it bitching, whatever you like, but it brought Dan and Gary out into a public forum they both probably despise, but it demonstrated that PGF is willing to address concerns and complaints, and ASA will not.

Agree on the kool-aid. If you are not one of the "chosen" organizations, it is going to be harder to get them to listen. But, I still bet you will get heard by Gary and Dan way more than anyone, even way down the list at ASA.

Agree on ASA loosing its way. I do not think ASA did this out of greed.

14u team economics is exactly the same as 18gold economics. Why spend almost 3x the money?

As far as going down to 14U, teams have been begging PGF to hold a tournament at this level. It was always in the works at PGF from the beginning. They started with 18gold because they knew those coaches and could secure commitments that allow for the launch of PGF.

As far as being in a public forum, both Gary and Dan have posted on a number of occasions, from the very beginning of PGF. They are not heavy posters here, and were not big posters before PGF started, but I think they have always payed attention, read what they can. Like any good 18g they work hard to stay in tune with the sport.

When issues arise they are not afraid to come on here and give their side. I get no sense that they despise this forum. I suspect they are very busy and it is hard to do everything they are already committed. Correctly so, they tend to let these types of threads hash themselves out.

[SRM]

I bet if you emailed or called one of the powers to be with ASA they would listen to your concerns as I did. The person I spoke with listened to all my concerns and help me see a bit from there side. I would not bash a person just because they dont get on a message board. I think PGF will actually help ASA become an even better program as everyone needs a wake up call now and then. PGF is having to build something from the ground up and ASA already has things in place at a National level they just need to make some changes. It is easy for PGF to make sudden changes on the go as their BOD only has a few people unlike ASA as they have a nation wide council. PGF needs its props as they have been building a good little program and hopefully they continue as teams need more than one place to play. I am curious if the two groups can work together as there are enough teams for both groups to be succesful.

To me anyways it seems as ASA has been listening and starting to make some changes. They placed the 18 Gold in San Diego which is a great location. The person I spoke with also stated that the ASA/USA will now be in a rotation so each year there will be one in each territory and he stated the 16U would be in the west in 2013.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents as I have watched this thread grow. To me it sounds like a good problem for the game as we the customer are going to beneift.

[sftblldud]

I bet if you emailed or called one of the powers to be with ASA they would listen to your concerns as I did. The person I spoke with listened to all my concerns and help me see a bit from there side. I would not bash a person just because they dont get on a message board. I think PGF will actually help ASA become an even better program as everyone needs a wake up call now and then. PGF is having to build something from the ground up and ASA already has things in place at a National level they just need to make some changes. It is easy for PGF to make sudden changes on the go as their BOD only has a few people unlike ASA as they have a nation wide council. PGF needs its props as they have been building a good little program and hopefully they continue as teams need more than one place to play. I am curious if the two groups can work together as there are enough teams for both groups to be succesful.

To me anyways it seems as ASA has been listening and starting to make some changes. They placed the 18 Gold in San Diego which is a great location. The person I spoke with also stated that the ASA/USA will now be in a rotation so each year there will be one in each territory and he stated the 16U would be in the west in 2013
I just wanted to throw in my two cents as I have watched this thread grow. To me it sounds like a good problem for the game as we the customer are going to beneift.

Don't start drinking the Kool-Aid just because you spoke with some lackey up in ASA. The only plaque I want on my wall would be a Nat'l Championship from PGF or Die trying. I'm Just Sayin, Feeeel Me Brotha!!

[Old Darter]

The Houston Qualifier may have been weakly attended by 14U, but the 16u and 18u was loaded with strong competition, especially since ASA 16A and ASA Reg 7 Gold Qualifiers were both also going on in Tx. There were 27 teams in 16U and 36 in 18U at the Houston Premier Qualifier and the teams that Qualified are teams most people know as stronger teams.

I somewhat disagree with the level of competition at the 18 HS division in Houston. Several of the top teams in the area chose to go to the Gold qualifier in College Station. Sudden Impact, Glory Adkins, Tx Peppers, Tx Bombers, FW Batbusters, and both Houston Power teams. Those teams, in addition to Tx Impact and Tx Magic were much better than most of the teams that qualified at the PGF qualifier in Houston.

With all due respect to the Kaos team that qualified at PGF, they wouldn't have finished in the top 15 in College Station Gold qualifier.

If I were a team from Tx, and knew all the top teams were going to PGF, I'd go ASA Gold too. At least I'd stand a better chance of getting the trophy.

[AlwaysImprove]

The Houston Qualifier may have been weakly attended by 14U, but the 16u and 18u was loaded with strong competition, especially since ASA 16A and ASA Reg 7 Gold Qualifiers were both also going on in Tx. There were 27 teams in 16U and 36 in 18U at the Houston Premier Qualifier and the teams that Qualified are teams most people know as stronger teams.

I somewhat disagree with the level of competition at the 18 HS division in Houston. Several of the top teams in the area chose to go to the Gold qualifier in College Station. Sudden Impact, Glory Adkins, Tx Peppers, Tx Bombers, FW Batbusters, and both Houston Power teams. Those teams, in addition to Tx Impact and Tx Magic were much better than most of the teams that qualified at the PGF qualifier in Houston.

With all due respect to the Kaos team that qualified at PGF, they wouldn't have finished in the top 15 in College Station Gold qualifier.

If I were a team from Tx, and knew all the top teams were going to PGF, I'd go ASA Gold too. At least I'd stand a better chance of getting the trophy.

Trophy hunting seems to be a strategy of the past.