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by Dugout Dad » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:03 am

jjsqueeze wrote:I wish all the bleeding heart liberals and all the right wing loonies would just kill each other already so I wouldn't have to ever see Al SHARTpton again and I would never have to read an idiotic post blaming the president for something like this.


So, you blast sharpton, yet hold the President blameless. No connection??
Sharpton has officially met with obama at the White House at least 61 times since 2009, unofficially, who knows how many more times they have met.

National Review: Al Sharpton Was WH Guest 61 Times Since '09
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/sharpton-white-house-visits-Obamas/2014/12/12/id/612689/

Obama has referred to Sharpton as "the voice of the voiceless and a champion for the downtrodden."
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy.
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by jjsqueeze » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:51 pm

I blast Sharpton based on the entirety of what he has done with his career, he is just a media whore and doesn't really give a crap about anyone, I do not think he has anything to do with the two cops being murdered. I blast Obama on his healthcare monstrosity and his inability to find a way to work with Congressional Republicans to get anything meaningful done, or wimpy response to ISIS. I blasted Bush for wasting so much money on a war in Iraq instead of investing it in energy infrastructure here at home. I try to blast away for things people actually do and have control over, not for ideological differences that I have with them. Blaming Obama for the cops being killed is complete BS plain and simple,

Do we go back and blame Clinton for Oklahoma city? Is Reagan responsible for the spate of abortion clinic bombings in the 80s? How about blaming George W for the Virginia tech shootings?

Or maybe....just maybe....lunatics will find a reason to kill regardless of the administration.

If you want to make ANY argument about Obama's responsibility for increased killing of police officers you would have to look at national data for the rate of police deaths during his presidency and compare it to other presidents. Maybe it has, I don't know. But I would look at that post and think "well reasoned, well researched, reasonable conclusion based on the data" but just saying that since a black guy in New York killed two cops that he was somehow enabled by Obama's views is just, well, stupid and poorly reasoned.
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by fontana10! » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:40 pm

JJ your post is well written. I do have to say I agree with most of what you posted. I just simply feel this President and AG have completely empowered the black criminal community by the outlandish remarks they've made. This dates back to the Duke LaCrosse players. Who were later found to be guilty only of hiring a black stripper who lied about the entire incident. Martin, Brown and his buddy the professor are by far the worst. If you actually listen or read what he said about law enforcement and race in each of those incidents, anyone can clearly see he jumped to conclusions based off of race alone. His reckless statements have clearly led ignorant criminals to feel it is somehow right to loot, riot and destroy property. He never once spoke about the two white NYPD Lieutenants who were attacked last week at the protest on the bridge. But he will spend my tax payer dollars to send representatives to the funerals of thugs. Just take a look at his appointments during his tenure as President. If a police officer acts negligently, then there should be justice. That I believe everyone agrees with. However, when the President and AG immediately schedule press conferences after the death or mistreatment of black individuals, but don't do the same for other races I think the picture is clear. Due process also includes police officers. But this administration continues to question every action these brave men and women make. JJ opinions vary and ours are clearly different.
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by Dugout Dad » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:29 am

jjsqueeze wrote:I blast Sharpton based on the entirety of what he has done with his career, he is just a media whore and doesn't really give a crap about anyone, I do not think he has anything to do with the two cops being murdered.


It only took one person to take Sharpton's actions to heart and now two NYPD cops are dead. The Rev said nothing publically to these protesters to stop these chants, but now he is condemning them, too late. Rhetoric has consequences. Once again, this scumbag has been to the White House 61 times.

FLASHBACK: Al Sharpton's Marchers in New York City Chant "What Do We Want? Dead Cops!"
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/12/21/flashback-al-sharptons-marchers-in-new-york-city-chant-what-do-we-want-dead-cops-n1934308

Sharpton: We Lost The First Round In Ferguson But The Fight Isn'T Over
http://youtu.be/MuaydFAdJK0?t=1m44s
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by jjsqueeze » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:31 am

Fontana- I think we probably do agree on a host of things. The responsibility of people in government leadership over an individual's actions just isn't one of them.

Dugoutdad-

If we blame leaders for the atrocities that happen by individuals under their watch then we are attributing far too much power to them and we are removing the individual's responsibility for their own actions. These are two things I refuse to accept. I do not believe that the individual is that powerless in their actions. Everyone makes up their mind on what to do. The fact that they found some sort of justification in something that a leader says is moot. They would have found other justification on another day, for another reason to commit the act that grew in their heart over a lifetime. If we accept this line of reasoning then we have to make it go "both ways blue" to bring this back to softball, and blame some very good residents for some very bad things that happened on their watch and may or may not have been prompted by their rhetoric.

It is a tough issue to be sure, I grew up in LA, I am white but I saw what happens to black people as far as cops go. There is a running joke that the only time we would see a black guy in Beverly Hills was when he was being pulled over by a cop. I know for a fact that black people were treated far differently than white people I saw it with my own eyes.

BUT- at the same time- There are no Santa Monica Crips full of white boys gunning each other down. So the cops come on to the force, and pretty soon realize that regardless of the cause, south central LA is a hell of a lot more dangerous and full of crime than Marina Del Rey. So they have to develop judgment in order to make the decisions about how to best enforce the law and protect the citizenry on a daily basis. Part of this judgment is that if you are a young black male dressed a certain way then you have a FAR GREATER LIKELIHOOD OF POSING A THREAT TO AN OFFICER OR A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN. I do not think this is racist, it is just being human. For the same reason that I have no problem with racial profiling at an airport (please talk to the middle eastern looking folks but go ahead and let the white grandma keep her shoes on).

BUT-Because of the realities of their job and the need to make some quick decisions, I do think that when they get it wrong it is usually a minority on the other side of the mistake. I do not think it is racism per se, meaning that I do not think the cops are running around thinking that minorities are somehow inferior or not deserving of protection, I just think they get programmed by reality to have to make judgment calls and if you have pick out the criminal, The homie in the hoody has a higher likelihood of criminal behavior than the white boy in the Abercrombie sweatshirt.

The other night I was driving home from a party with my family and we were pulled over My daughters had never been pulled over before and they asked if we were going to be arrested. I said "girls, we are a middle class white family in a new Subaru, we won't even get a ticket"...the cop told me I had a taillight out, asked me to fix it and we told each other to have a good evening. I do not think that minorities have the same confidence that I have that the cops would be fair with them.

My point is that I have the utmost belief that police officers are there to assist and protect me and my family, but because of reality, cops have to make quick assessments, crime is higher in poor areas, minorities tend to be lower on the economic ladder so they tend to commit more crime, so cops tend to make more mistakes with them and when a cop shoots someone it is usually a young black male. Then the black community responds to this with outrage, to a large extent very justifiable, I mean if it was your kid wouldn't you be pissed? I know I would.

But reality is reality and if I were a black man I would be teaching my kids the following-

DONT YOU EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GIVE A POLICE OFFICER ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE ANYTHING BUT A COOPERATIVE CITIZEN-THEY FACE DANGER EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY SO UNTIL YOU CAN PROVE YOU ARE NOT A THREAT YOU ARE IN A VERY DANGEROUS PLACE.

The three stories in the news are all tragic, but in all three instances the men were not doing their best to put the officer at ease. One was walking around acting like he was shooting a gun, the other was physically confrontational and the third was verbally confrontational. I think in all three cases the cops did over react and no one needed to die in any of the situations, but the people also did not do what they could to put the officers at ease either.

Come to think of it, when I was pulled over, my first thought was to put my hands on my steering wheel not move them and be fully cooperative. But then again this was the first time I had been pulled over in 10 years-if it was the 50th time I had been pulled over, maybe I would get sick of it too and start mouthing off.

It's complicated, but there are two sides so I try to refrain from taking any, I just try to look at the problem itself.
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by Hurricane » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:14 pm

JJ wrote:

But reality is reality and if I were a black man I would be teaching my kids the following-

DONT YOU EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GIVE A POLICE OFFICER ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE ANYTHING BUT A COOPERATIVE CITIZEN-THEY FACE DANGER EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY SO UNTIL YOU CAN PROVE YOU ARE NOT A THREAT YOU ARE IN A VERY DANGEROUS PLACE.

----------------------------------------------------

Why do you say "If I were a black man"?

ALL Americans should follow those rules. When watching any police confrontation (no matter the color of skin), I tell my kids..police officers are there to protect communities and make sure all of us obey the law....if they tell you to stop, you stop, if they you to put your hands up...you do it to show them you are not a threat....police officers are fully informed in S.A. (Situational Awareness). Agreed, they face danger EVERY minute of their lives (even off duty at times).

If everyone obeyed the officers, there wouldn't be shootings like we've seen.
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by jjsqueeze » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:39 pm

I explained why in my post. Like it or not, pulling over a car full of black dudes in South Central LA is going to put a police officer more on edge than pulling over a car full of UCLA frat boys. Not what we all want to believe is the ideal, but it is reality. Or at least what the cops I have known have said as much.

Agree everyone should behave this way, but the reality is that if I as a middle aged white guy reach for my waistband suddenly chances are I am not going to be shot. Make me a 18 year old black guy in a hoody with saggy pants and the odds go up on my being shot.

I am telling you my first hand experience growing up in LA having friends get hassled while I got a pass, sometimes in the same car, and knowing cops in LA and hearing their stories. My experience is that the reality out there is that MANY black people out there have had a completely different experience with cops than most middle class white people.

So the bottom line for me is that these events are tragic, for the families of the people that were killed, for the cops themselves for the communities. But I am not going to sit back and judge anyone. I am not going to judge the cops who just want to get home safe to their families and I am not going to judge the anger of the communities at the treatment by police when I have seen the difference in treatment first hand. It is just tragic and I pray that someday poverty does not afflict so many so they are not put under the stress it creates that leads to crime in general which starts this vicious cycle. At the end of the day I do not believe there is a huge racism problem in America, I do believe there is a huge poverty problem and a huge breakdown of the nuclear family problem.

I can easily judge a man assassinating two cops for no reason though.
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by PDad » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:46 pm

jjsqueeze wrote:If we blame leaders for the atrocities that happen by individuals under their watch then we are attributing far too much power to them and we are removing the individual's responsibility for their own actions. These are two things I refuse to accept. I do not believe that the individual is that powerless in their actions. Everyone makes up their mind on what to do. The fact that they found some sort of justification in something that a leader says is moot. They would have found other justification on another day, for another reason to commit the act that grew in their heart over a lifetime. If we accept this line of reasoning then we have to make it go "both ways blue" to bring this back to softball, and blame some very good residents for some very bad things that happened on their watch and may or may not have been prompted by their rhetoric.

No one is suggesting this removes an individual's responsibility for their actions. In fact, people are responsible to NOT obey an unlawful order from their leaders. The only leniency in these cases comes from plea deals to testify against the higher-up in egregious cases.

There are laws against inciting others to commit crimes and violators should be held responsible according to their role. This in no way diminishes the other criminal's culpability.
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by jjsqueeze » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:00 pm

Then please cite where Sharpton or Obama or Holder incited violence? I may have missed the part where one of these guys declared open season on cops, I think it would have made the news. Or are you saying that a black leader showing support for the victim of a family that has faced tragedy is the thing that is inciting violence? Maybe you think that all of these deaths are not errors in judgment at all and are wholly dependent on the victims? I don't know all the facts, but I saw the video of the altercation in New York and it sure looks to me like the cops had him under control when he was saying he couldn't breath and if they had believed him maybe he would be alive. At the same time, he could have simply answered the questions and not been confrontational and maybe it would have never come to that.

My guess is that as with most things, the folks on the left crying racism are wrong and the folks on the right saying that the cops are completely justified are wrong. Somewhere in the middle is probably right, a guy made a mistake in not being compliant enough and in the escalation, a cop made a mistake in using too much force for the situation.

A wise man I knew once said that the world is analog not digital. Try as we might to put everything in a nice little black and white box, (no pun intended) things rarely fit nicely.
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by Hurricane » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:48 pm

hey JJ....r-e-l-a-x

All I was trying to say that if EVERY American followed an officer's instructions, there wouldn't be shootings. Around here, a few white guys were shot and killed. Why? They didn't follow directions. Instead of hands up or lying on the ground, they decided to reach into their pocket for their cell phone. WRONG move. Police are on edge in any community where a crime is being committed or where there's suspicion of a crime to be committed. I do agree, percentages are it's usually in an inner city black community. However, if EVERYONE would just obey a police officer's instructions, no one would get shot.
Last edited by Hurricane on Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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