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by blackwidow » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:26 pm

IMO you would be better served presenting your case on the pure merits and practicality(as opposed to the evil spectre of government trying to control our lives) of some of your ideas, you might get more people to listen.


That is rich..
People are listening. AND It's only you that seems to have a problem with my presentation style and yet you continue to read and respond to my posts. LOL
How about you post your topics your way and I post my topics my way.
Deal?

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by Battle » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm

PDad wrote:
Battle wrote:
SC44 wrote: Most all of the residential burglaries are committed by drug addicts looking to get their next fix. Identity thieves are stealing your identity to buy dope..

That's right. It's not the drugs that cause people to steal...it's the lack of drugs. Think about that for a minute...

So, if we make drugs less expensive, drug users will keep using the same amount and will commit less crime? That seems counter to the price demand curve.

"The whole purpose of buying cocaine is to run out of it." -- George Carlin

I'll admit the curve for drugs has a different shape than the traditional one. Jacking the price up has less impact on demand and can have unintended consequences. For example, the surge in heroin use is tied to the high price of prescription drugs like Oxycontin.

When legally sold, a 10-mg tablet of OxyContin will cost $1.25 and an 80-mg tablet will cost $6. When illegally sold, a 10-mg tablet of OxyContin can cost between $5.00 and $10.00. An 80-mg tablet can cost between $65.00 and $80.50.

Is the law helping or hurting?
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by blackwidow » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Battle wrote:Is the law helping or hurting?


Any time there is government prohibition it creates a black market and cartels. A UN report said, "the global drug trade generated an estimated US $321.6 billion in 2003." With a world GDP of US$36 trillion in the same year, the illegal drug trade may be estimated as nearly 1% of total global trade. Consumption of illegal drugs is widespread globally.

Failures of the Drug War

It has failed to prevent drug abuse.
It has failed to prevent drug overdoses.
It has failed to reduce drug use.
It has failed to reduce the demand for drugs.
It has failed to keep drugs out of the hands of addicts.
It has failed to keep drugs out of the hands of teenagers.
It has failed to keep drugs out of schools.
It has failed to keep drugs out of prisons.
It has failed to stop the flow of drugs into the United States.
It has failed to stop the violence associated with drug trafficking.

The has succeeded in is increasing the prison population.
Increasing taxes.
Increasing the size of government.
Increasing the scope of government intrusion.
Increase in violence associated with Cartels.

Despite the constant effort by politicians to win the war on drugs, the U.S. is still the world’s largest importer of illegal drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade
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by PDad » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:30 pm

Battle wrote:
PDad wrote:
Battle wrote:
SC44 wrote: Most all of the residential burglaries are committed by drug addicts looking to get their next fix. Identity thieves are stealing your identity to buy dope..

That's right. It's not the drugs that cause people to steal...it's the lack of drugs. Think about that for a minute...

So, if we make drugs less expensive, drug users will keep using the same amount and will commit less crime? That seems counter to the price demand curve.

"The whole purpose of buying cocaine is to run out of it." -- George Carlin

I'll admit the curve for drugs has a different shape than the traditional one. Jacking the price up has less impact on demand and can have unintended consequences. For example, the surge in heroin use is tied to the high price of prescription drugs like Oxycontin.

When legally sold, a 10-mg tablet of OxyContin will cost $1.25 and an 80-mg tablet will cost $6. When illegally sold, a 10-mg tablet of OxyContin can cost between $5.00 and $10.00. An 80-mg tablet can cost between $65.00 and $80.50.

Is the law helping or hurting?

Your question is too ambiguous to answer accurately, so all I can say is it helps some and hurts some.

What is the optimum price of Oxycontin for society?
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by Battle » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:36 pm

blackwidow wrote: The has succeeded in is increasing the prison population.

...and then turned back to society where it's hard to get loans, housing, education, or jobs. What sense does that make?
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by PDad » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:02 pm

blackwidow wrote:Failures of the Drug War

It has failed to prevent drug abuse.
It has failed to prevent drug overdoses.
It has failed to reduce drug use.
It has failed to reduce the demand for drugs.

It has failed to keep drugs out of the hands of addicts.
It has failed to keep drugs out of the hands of teenagers.
It has failed to keep drugs out of schools.
It has failed to keep drugs out of prisons.
It has failed to stop the flow of drugs into the United States.
It has failed to stop the violence associated with drug trafficking.

I question the claims it hasn't reduced use or demand compared to what would be without it. Please provide supporting data for these claims.

As for the rest of the claims, they are impossible to eradicate completely - just like the ants, cockroaches and black widows that we strive to keep out of our homes.
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by blackwidow » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:23 pm

Battle wrote:
blackwidow wrote: The has succeeded in is increasing the prison population.

...and then turned back to society where it's hard to get loans, housing, education, or jobs. What sense does that make?


Zero sense.
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I question the claims it hasn't reduced use or demand compared to what would be without it. Please provide supporting data for these claims.


Well along with all the previous links have already posted here is one that is specific to your question regarding drug addiction rate. As you can clearly see the addiction rate has remained relatively flat line from 1970-2010 while the spending for the drug war in has increased exponentially.
Within the linked article are their links to the sources that they used to compile the data.
Feel free to read on your own as well and find your own links.

http://www.thewire.com/national/2012/10 ... ing/57913/

Considering the US is the largest consumer IN THE WORLD of illicit drugs I would say the demand has not been reduced.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-th ... -drug-use/

PDAD you're not afraid of a little spider are you?
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by PDad » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:12 pm

blackwidow wrote:
I question the claims it hasn't reduced use or demand compared to what would be without it. Please provide supporting data for these claims.

Well along with all the previous links have already posted here is one that is specific to your question regarding drug addiction rate. As you can clearly see the addiction rate has remained relatively flat line from 1970-2010 while the spending for the drug war in has increased exponentially.
Within the linked article are their links to the sources that they used to compile the data.
Feel free to read on your own as well and find your own links.

http://www.thewire.com/national/2012/10 ... ing/57913/

FAIL - addiction is neither use nor demand. It also doesn't prove there has been no effect on WHAT WOULD BE WITHOUT IT. By your logic, or lack thereof, regular mowing of a lawn has no effect because the height of the grass remains relatively flat.

Considering the US is the largest consumer IN THE WORLD of illicit drugs I would say the demand has not been reduced.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-th ... -drug-use/

FAIL - LOL this measured any usage in their lifetime. Regardless, where the US ranks is also irrelevant to your claims.

I'm certainly not defending the strategies, tactics or money spent on the War on Drugs. It has been poorly run. I only object to people claiming it has had no positive results without supporting documentation.

PDAD you're not afraid of a little spider are you?

No, spiders are actually important members of the ecosystem. I also know black widows fall short of their reputation.

Be careful what you ingest...

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by blackwidow » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:56 am

Pdad..I am sorry that I failed to convince you.
Since the overall addiction rate has remained relatively flat in spite of all the money thrown at the WAR on drugs I see I see that as a failure.
Unfortunately, There is no perfect way to quantify peoples private habits without relying on personal surveys. (which can be very flawed)
You can download and read these reports.
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/SAMHDA/series/00064

I apologize and will with draw my statements that ...
It has failed to reduce drug use.
It has failed to reduce demand
Amended to say...
It has failed to reduce addiction rates while
the demand for illicit drugs in US remains highest in the world.




Peace
Last edited by blackwidow on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by blackwidow » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:06 am

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This is my brain on government approved substances.
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