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by PDad » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:26 pm

jonriv wrote:So what your saying is tax fraud is honorable??

We can certainly debate what is a fair tax rate, deductions, credits etc.... However I'm not sure I can fault the govt for enforcing the tax code. I also don't agree with glorifying cash businesses that are tax evaders to the detriment of those legitimate businesses that pay their taxes

Typical Jr - misses the point(s) completely...
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by jonriv » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:07 am

Then enlighten me - what is the point??

The only thing I can glean from the the thread is there are too many laws(except where finance is concerned, everyone is an unknowing felon and the only difference people in prison have is they were caught(and all were first time offenders)
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by blackwidow » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:09 am

SC44 wrote:The war on drugs is changing and to be honest, our government never wanted us to win. In California, we have this new law in place called AB109. This is prison realignment. If a crime is considered NON- serious, NON- violent and NON- sex related, you will NOT go to prison (state that is Feds are whole different story). Drugs are categorized as a NON,NON,NON. So what does that mean? Get caught with a ounce of coke, heroin or meth ( weed is medicine) and get county jail. Get caught with a pound of coke, heroin or meth, county jail.


SC44..
Welcome to the conversation. Reading some of the information on AB109 that calls for sentencing reform.
The real question is being ignored.

Is it right to kidnap peaceful people and lock them in a cage for the substances they choose to ingest? Are you a freeman or are you not?

Unlike folks like jonriv, I like to live by the Golden Rule and treat others as I wish to be treated.
And as a moral person I would NEVER kidnap and lock Peaceful Americans Who Voluntarily Choose To Use Intoxicants Not Currently Approved of by the Government into a cage.
By extension I cannot support a LAW to do it in my stead. The law is force. It is the point of a gun.

BTW..The same is happening with the Gun Control crowd. They are not against guns because government would still have guns. They are simply against us proles owning guns without a government permission slip. Freemen don't ask for permission. Slaves ask for permission.

But the War on Drugs (Peaceful Americans Who Voluntarily Choose To Use Intoxicants Not Currently Approved of by the Government), is not just a failure, it has also fostered great evils when it comes to privacy, the prison system, the judicial system, law enforcement, pain treatment, and civil liberties.

Although the Drug War is blatantly unconstitutional, an illegitimate function of government, a monumental failure, and the cause of a great many evils, we should never lose sight of the fact that above all its real problem is that it is a war on property and freedom.

Gun Control and Drug Control 2 sided coin.
http://lfb.org/gun-control-and-the-war-on-drugs/

WHO OWNS YOU? THAT is the point of this thread..and I believe that point is perfectly clear to the majority of the respondents.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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by jonriv » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:39 am

BW

The problem with your thesis is that you take the stance that these are government imposed laws. These are laws that are voted on by elected officials. The war on drugs was a response to public outcry- you can certainly agree if it was excessive or if it worked or not- unconstitutionl????

Part of being in a democracy is that laws are passed by a majority- many times we may fall on the minority side of that decision- we have to then abide by that law(even if we don't agree) We have the option of trying to persuade to change the law and in the case where the law is potentially infringing on our guaranteed rights(unconstitutional) there are courts to address that.

Are all laws just-no Do all laws attempt to be just- I think so

I tend to agree with you on people ingesting intoxicants- as long as it is not imposing a threat to others(ie DUI) I tend to think some of the directions taken in Europe are a little more practical, effective and economical. IMO you would be better served presenting your case on the pure merits and practicality(as opposed to the evil spectre of government trying to control our lives) of some of your ideas, you might get more people to listen.
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by SC44 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:31 am

When people make a decision to violate the law, that is the choice of a “freeman” to jeopardize their freedom. Is the risk worth the reward?

Drug users- I wouldn’t care one bit if they used drugs and it did not create a burden on society. But where I live it does. The tax payers pay for medical bills, rehab treatment, counseling, family reunification the list goes on and on. Most all of the residential burglaries are committed by drug addicts looking to get their next fix. Identity thieves are stealing your identity to buy dope. I have seen 19 year old junkies that look 40- Who owns them? Their drug of choice does. I have heard many say it’s a disease. Is it? Or is a weakness?

WHO OWNS ME? Well my wife may say she does, but I own me. I am responsible for my past, present and future. And only my decisions will dictate my future.
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by Battle » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:12 pm

jonriv wrote:Part of being in a democracy is that laws are passed by a majority- many times we may fall on the minority side of that decision- we have to then abide by that law(even if we don't agree)

The majority of who? The people? You really need to get out more... :roll:
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by Battle » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:17 pm

SC44 wrote: Most all of the residential burglaries are committed by drug addicts looking to get their next fix. Identity thieves are stealing your identity to buy dope..

That's right. It's not the drugs that cause people to steal...it's the lack of drugs. Think about that for a minute...
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by ontheblack » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:41 pm

PDad wrote:
jonriv wrote:So what your saying is tax fraud is honorable??

We can certainly debate what is a fair tax rate, deductions, credits etc.... However I'm not sure I can fault the govt for enforcing the tax code. I also don't agree with glorifying cash businesses that are tax evaders to the detriment of those legitimate businesses that pay their taxes

Typical Jr - misses the point(s) completely...


Of course he does.
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by ontheblack » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:44 pm

jonriv wrote:Not sure what your point is?? Too many laws?? Too many scoflaws?? Coyirights/trademarks good or bad?? Should we have no laws?? Crime and punishment change through the ages(ie debtor prison) Are you looking for 100% enforcement, no enforcemet- what???


As for those upstanding citizens who have never committed a felony, consider

- the # of Wall Street types who could be charged with felony SEC violations

How many?? Which laws?? What exactly is a Wall Street type? You paint a broad brush. As someone in the financial industry I am face with a huge amount of regulation I need to follow. The company I work for also has very dedicated compliance officers that audit and monitor us relentlessly to make sure we are compliant


- the # of Americans who have committed perjury and fraud (think tax returns). Ever not reported income from tips or failed to 1099 someone for work performed over a certain dollar amount?

US tax system is unique in that it actually operated on the "honor" system. We basically report ourselves what we owe- every once and a while the IRS will audit us to make sure we reported right

- more than a few 18 year olds with 17 year old or younger girlfriends who have done more than kiss

So you have a problem with Statutory rape laws(which vary by state-its not Federal)?? Most states the 18-17 does not qualify. Leagal age of consent varies from state to state

- anyone violating a websites TOS. Its called Computer Fraud and Abuse (Title 18 U.S. Code §1030)
Is not a TOS violation a Tort-- more likely to be handled in civil court??

- Copyright infringement - Its not just the countless # who have downloaded music illegally, but those who have used a copyrighted image without permission. Heybucket has several who have committed a felony simply with their avatar

Copyrights/tradmarks/patents have been covered by US law since and including in the constitution. Use of an Avatar-as long as personal is considered OK. Downloading unlicensed music is in essence stealing(just ask the artists)
- violate curfew


You stated that you have never committed a felony. My point was that your claim is most likely untrue.
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by PDad » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:05 pm

Battle wrote:
SC44 wrote: Most all of the residential burglaries are committed by drug addicts looking to get their next fix. Identity thieves are stealing your identity to buy dope..

That's right. It's not the drugs that cause people to steal...it's the lack of drugs. Think about that for a minute...

So, if we make drugs less expensive, drug users will keep using the same amount and will commit less crime? That seems counter to the price demand curve.

"The whole purpose of buying cocaine is to run out of it." -- George Carlin

I'll admit the curve for drugs has a different shape than the traditional one. Jacking the price up has less impact on demand and can have unintended consequences. For example, the surge in heroin use is tied to the high price of prescription drugs like Oxycontin.
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