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by slapperdad » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:51 am

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by Mark H » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:32 am

Same thing happens in hitting instruction. Every new guru has to rename things and come up with their own jargon. Non reality based cues can be helpful but when age appropriate I prefer terms with actual definitions like external to internal rotation of the shoulder.
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by Cannonball » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:52 pm

Never mind.
Granny said sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

CoachB25 on other boards.
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by Tyler Durden » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:50 pm

slapperdad wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH5IMv2jeuk


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VETERANS....ALL GAVE SOME, SOME GAVE ALL
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by Pale Rider » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:28 am

Dee Jay Slice...Da Master
https://youtu.be/rjKhkx9kN_I
AKA "Thread Killer"

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by Pale Rider » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:21 am

C77fastpitch wrote:I thought this was a SOFTBALL forum? People who refuse to discuss the topic at hand should post elsewhere. Where are the administrative controls? These last four posters are not, and never have been interested in discussing softball matters, and something should be done about them. I'm really getting tired of this, and will act in a responsible way to stop this if something isn't done.


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Lighten up Francis ;)
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by jwrunner » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:25 am

Seriously? No one responds because you've shown no interest in having "discussion" with anyone. You don't opine, you pontificate. Then you wait for people to simply agree with you, and if they don't, you light them up with personal attacks, not logical counterpoints. Just as I'm sure you will respond to this posting momentarily. This used to be an interesting forum to follow, but now has dried up because of this crap.

This is the 3rd thread you've started on the same topic without anyone biting. You clearly have some axe to grind with the Tincher people and folks on this board know they are wasting their breath trying to "discuss" any different point of view.
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by jwrunner » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:15 am

C77,

Kudos for a much more measured response than I anticipated. I may live to regret this, but I will take you at your word and engage. First, go back and read my post again. There is nothing in it that would suggest I’m not open-minded on this subject. I was just stating why I believed people were not responding to you – nothing at all about the subject matter. This is actually a subject that is of great interest to me, as I have a daughter who is a pitcher. So I am constantly questioning and investigating everything that is being taught. It is of critical importance to me that I do my due diligence to get her the best instruction (for her) that is available. I say “for her” because I firmly believe that the dynamic between coach and student plays a significant role in progress, not merely what mechanics are being taught. Even coaches teaching what I believe (you’ll see me use that word a lot here) to be proper mechanics may not be a good fit for a particular kid.

Being an engineer by trade and a researcher by nature, I have a keen interest in understanding pitching mechanics and the underlying physics that makes it all work. I’ve spent countless hours investigating the subject of pitching mechanics and plan on countless more in the years to come. BTW, a great source for investigation is the pitching forum at discussfastpitch.com. The site is visited by the likes of Bill Hillhouse, Rick Pauly, Rich Balswick, occasionally Amanda Scarborough, and a handful of other REALLY good coaches you’ve never heard of. Lots of trolls to be sure also, but great info if you are willing to parse through it. There is also an annual pitching clinic in Richmond IN in January (started last year) that draws top pitching coaches from around the country (last year Hillhouse, Pauly, and Balswick were all there).

At this point, I have also been exposed in one way or another, to many of the well-known pitching coaches around central Indiana. That includes years of lessons with a well know and often attacked, contributor to this forum, and more recently; 6 months of lessons with a Tincher coach. I believe the criticisms you levied against the Tincher folks are true of many (if not most) of the pitching coaches out there. I have found that the majority speak with great derision about other PCs. Most purport that they are the only ones who really know what they are doing, and that everyone else is doing harm. This I know firsthand. The PC well known to this board in particular has that penchant. But he also taught my girl mechanics that I had come to believe were correct, and my daughter initially responded to him. So I simply ignored the rhetoric and bluster and carried on. And contrary to your characterizations, in my personal experience, the PC who has talked this way the least is the Tincher coach. Zero smack talk about other pitching coaches so far. And while I can’t say what claims have been made to others, I can also tell you that there have been no claims of crazy speed increases, shortcuts to success, or new methods that no one else is teaching. They do use terminology different than some, but not necessarily unique. Elbow snap or whip is a terminology shared with Bill Hillhouse, for instance. In my experience, lots of coaches use different terminology when in fact describing similar mechanics. In fact, I believe that most PCs can be placed into one of two broad categories: 1) the traditional philosophy of slamming the hips closed, palm down at 9:00 (ball towards 2nd base), and a hello elbow finish; and 2) the stay open and throw across your body types. For type 2, they use terms like palm up or facing 3rd base at 9:00, whip the elbow, elbow snap, throw across your body, Internal Rotation, Fluid Dynamics, brush interference, palm down finish, etc. Many try to sell their subtleties as distinguishing them from the rest but I believe the similarities outweigh the differences – at least when it comes to the most critical aspects of the motion. I have always tried to use video of the best pitchers on the planet to try to isolate what they all do the same. If the mechanics are correct, chances are the best pitchers are doing it. Hillhouse has a similar philosophy: breaking the motion down into things that he believes are absolute, must-do’s and things that are personal style.

To that end, there are no substantive differences in what the Tincher PC teaches vs. what her previous (category 2) PC taught. She does teach some things as absolutes, which I believe fall more into the style category, but that is not worth a fight IMO. She does charge more than most local PCs, and I do think they are too pricey. But I also believe our particular Tincher PC is incredibly invested in my daughter’s success and therefore still a good value. She engages my daughter far better during lessons than her previous coach did. We have rarely had a lesson where we didn’t go over by a half hour at least. She is always checking up on her through the week. Always asking for updates and stats from games pitched. She will often drive long distance to watch her play tournament games even if she doesn’t know if she will pitch, and will work with her between games for free. She also has no problem with us only going every other week to help manage costs. But perhaps most importantly, she has re-invigorated my daughter at a time when she had hit a plateau. Those are the things I value in her as a pitching COACH, in addition to “are the mechanics right”. So I feel like we are actually getting more efficient use out of our money than we were with the last coach. Perhaps that’s just a rationalization, but I don’t believe so.

At the risk of starting an argument, I would also give counterpoint to a few of you postings about Tincher coaches. In one of your postings, I noticed that you referenced Jenny Finch and Bill Hillhouse as examples of other well vetted coaches. Yet some of your objections to the Tincher folks also apply to those PCs. We have been to see Hillhouse, have his videos, read all his postings on DFP, and I really like him. But for information, a lesson with Bill will cost you $100, which is more than the Tincher coaches charge. As for Finch, she is obviously quite expensive as well. More importantly to me, I could show plenty of video of her preaching the “Hello Elbow” finish at her clinics, and then follow that up with over a hundred game pitches in which she NEVER actually uses that finish. And as to making claims that they have discovered the only correct methodologies, Jenny’s father Doug (who teaches at the clinics and hawks his merchandise) is the leader of that pack in that type of proselytizing. None of that is to say that there can’t be value in what they do or teach. There is probably no one single person that inspires more young softball players than Jenny Finch. But rather, it is an attempt to show that wading through this quagmire of opinion, claims, and sales pitches, is simply part and parcel of being a pitcher’s parent. Many parents choose to not even try to understand or make value judgments on a PC’s lesson content, but I believe they do so at their daughters’ peril. This isn’t rocket science. Most parents could understand it if they tried. Often I will hear justification for choosing a particular coach is that “they pitched in college”. But that alone says nothing about whether they understand even their own mechanics, let alone if they have any affinity at all for teaching the subject. And one can easily find multiple PCs who were successful college pitchers, yet teach dramatically different technique. So, in my opinion, if you don’t at least try to educate yourself and then evaluate each PC on their own merits, you are simply rolling the dice.

I’m not here to be a defender of Tincher or his disciples en masse. However, I do believe that you are unfairly generalizing in your negative reviews. Not all who go to Tincher coaches are gullible parents looking for a shortcut. Some of us are fairly well informed (and constantly adding information) and simply see a particular coach as the best fit to progress their kid. I also feel that the core of what they teach (what I called category 2 above) are the correct fundamentals, based on video of today’s best pitchers. Virtually every high level pitcher I see releases with a forearm rotation and finishes palm down on fastball (riseballs are obviously a different beast). None of them are actually palm down at 9:00. Ironically, when I watch kids who go to PCs that I know are hello elbow proponents, the most successful of those students also release palm down. They merely add on a fake hello elbow finish long after the ball is gone. That’s where my due diligence has taken me thus far. Could I be wrong about some of this? Certainly, and I am open to changing if more evidence refutes my current understanding. That’s how the scientific method works.

Reading back I can see I went a little overboard here – apologies if this came off as a rant. This is what engaging looks like from me on this subject. :)
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by slapperdad » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:26 am

Great reply JW.
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by eclipse09 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:20 pm

jwrunner wrote:C77,

Kudos for a much more measured response than I anticipated. I may live to regret this, but I will take you at your word and engage. First, go back and read my post again. There is nothing in it that would suggest I’m not open-minded on this subject. I was just stating why I believed people were not responding to you – nothing at all about the subject matter. This is actually a subject that is of great interest to me, as I have a daughter who is a pitcher. So I am constantly questioning and investigating everything that is being taught. It is of critical importance to me that I do my due diligence to get her the best instruction (for her) that is available. I say “for her” because I firmly believe that the dynamic between coach and student plays a significant role in progress, not merely what mechanics are being taught. Even coaches teaching what I believe (you’ll see me use that word a lot here) to be proper mechanics may not be a good fit for a particular kid.

Being an engineer by trade and a researcher by nature, I have a keen interest in understanding pitching mechanics and the underlying physics that makes it all work. I’ve spent countless hours investigating the subject of pitching mechanics and plan on countless more in the years to come. BTW, a great source for investigation is the pitching forum at discussfastpitch.com. The site is visited by the likes of Bill Hillhouse, Rick Pauly, Rich Balswick, occasionally Amanda Scarborough, and a handful of other REALLY good coaches you’ve never heard of. Lots of trolls to be sure also, but great info if you are willing to parse through it. There is also an annual pitching clinic in Richmond IN in January (started last year) that draws top pitching coaches from around the country (last year Hillhouse, Pauly, and Balswick were all there).

At this point, I have also been exposed in one way or another, to many of the well-known pitching coaches around central Indiana. That includes years of lessons with a well know and often attacked, contributor to this forum, and more recently; 6 months of lessons with a Tincher coach. I believe the criticisms you levied against the Tincher folks are true of many (if not most) of the pitching coaches out there. I have found that the majority speak with great derision about other PCs. Most purport that they are the only ones who really know what they are doing, and that everyone else is doing harm. This I know firsthand. The PC well known to this board in particular has that penchant. But he also taught my girl mechanics that I had come to believe were correct, and my daughter initially responded to him. So I simply ignored the rhetoric and bluster and carried on. And contrary to your characterizations, in my personal experience, the PC who has talked this way the least is the Tincher coach. Zero smack talk about other pitching coaches so far. And while I can’t say what claims have been made to others, I can also tell you that there have been no claims of crazy speed increases, shortcuts to success, or new methods that no one else is teaching. They do use terminology different than some, but not necessarily unique. Elbow snap or whip is a terminology shared with Bill Hillhouse, for instance. In my experience, lots of coaches use different terminology when in fact describing similar mechanics. In fact, I believe that most PCs can be placed into one of two broad categories: 1) the traditional philosophy of slamming the hips closed, palm down at 9:00 (ball towards 2nd base), and a hello elbow finish; and 2) the stay open and throw across your body types. For type 2, they use terms like palm up or facing 3rd base at 9:00, whip the elbow, elbow snap, throw across your body, Internal Rotation, Fluid Dynamics, brush interference, palm down finish, etc. Many try to sell their subtleties as distinguishing them from the rest but I believe the similarities outweigh the differences – at least when it comes to the most critical aspects of the motion. I have always tried to use video of the best pitchers on the planet to try to isolate what they all do the same. If the mechanics are correct, chances are the best pitchers are doing it. Hillhouse has a similar philosophy: breaking the motion down into things that he believes are absolute, must-do’s and things that are personal style.

To that end, there are no substantive differences in what the Tincher PC teaches vs. what her previous (category 2) PC taught. She does teach some things as absolutes, which I believe fall more into the style category, but that is not worth a fight IMO. She does charge more than most local PCs, and I do think they are too pricey. But I also believe our particular Tincher PC is incredibly invested in my daughter’s success and therefore still a good value. She engages my daughter far better during lessons than her previous coach did. We have rarely had a lesson where we didn’t go over by a half hour at least. She is always checking up on her through the week. Always asking for updates and stats from games pitched. She will often drive long distance to watch her play tournament games even if she doesn’t know if she will pitch, and will work with her between games for free. She also has no problem with us only going every other week to help manage costs. But perhaps most importantly, she has re-invigorated my daughter at a time when she had hit a plateau. Those are the things I value in her as a pitching COACH, in addition to “are the mechanics right”. So I feel like we are actually getting more efficient use out of our money than we were with the last coach. Perhaps that’s just a rationalization, but I don’t believe so.

At the risk of starting an argument, I would also give counterpoint to a few of you postings about Tincher coaches. In one of your postings, I noticed that you referenced Jenny Finch and Bill Hillhouse as examples of other well vetted coaches. Yet some of your objections to the Tincher folks also apply to those PCs. We have been to see Hillhouse, have his videos, read all his postings on DFP, and I really like him. But for information, a lesson with Bill will cost you $100, which is more than the Tincher coaches charge. As for Finch, she is obviously quite expensive as well. More importantly to me, I could show plenty of video of her preaching the “Hello Elbow” finish at her clinics, and then follow that up with over a hundred game pitches in which she NEVER actually uses that finish. And as to making claims that they have discovered the only correct methodologies, Jenny’s father Doug (who teaches at the clinics and hawks his merchandise) is the leader of that pack in that type of proselytizing. None of that is to say that there can’t be value in what they do or teach. There is probably no one single person that inspires more young softball players than Jenny Finch. But rather, it is an attempt to show that wading through this quagmire of opinion, claims, and sales pitches, is simply part and parcel of being a pitcher’s parent. Many parents choose to not even try to understand or make value judgments on a PC’s lesson content, but I believe they do so at their daughters’ peril. This isn’t rocket science. Most parents could understand it if they tried. Often I will hear justification for choosing a particular coach is that “they pitched in college”. But that alone says nothing about whether they understand even their own mechanics, let alone if they have any affinity at all for teaching the subject. And one can easily find multiple PCs who were successful college pitchers, yet teach dramatically different technique. So, in my opinion, if you don’t at least try to educate yourself and then evaluate each PC on their own merits, you are simply rolling the dice.

I’m not here to be a defender of Tincher or his disciples en masse. However, I do believe that you are unfairly generalizing in your negative reviews. Not all who go to Tincher coaches are gullible parents looking for a shortcut. Some of us are fairly well informed (and constantly adding information) and simply see a particular coach as the best fit to progress their kid. I also feel that the core of what they teach (what I called category 2 above) are the correct fundamentals, based on video of today’s best pitchers. Virtually every high level pitcher I see releases with a forearm rotation and finishes palm down on fastball (riseballs are obviously a different beast). None of them are actually palm down at 9:00. Ironically, when I watch kids who go to PCs that I know are hello elbow proponents, the most successful of those students also release palm down. They merely add on a fake hello elbow finish long after the ball is gone. That’s where my due diligence has taken me thus far. Could I be wrong about some of this? Certainly, and I am open to changing if more evidence refutes my current understanding. That’s how the scientific method works.

Reading back I can see I went a little overboard here – apologies if this came off as a rant. This is what engaging looks like from me on this subject. :)


Great post that confirms you are an engineer and a researcher...... :)
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