FIL is always right (in his own mind)

[wadeintothem]

Well, there is this in the NCAA rule book...

15.9.1: On a decision regarding a checked swing, when asked by the catcher, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire. Such a request may be made only when the plate umpire has called the pitch a ball.

They actually spell it out under a rule- as they do with so many other things. I don't think this is explicitly in the the rule book for ASA or high school, but it is something I've been universally taught in training and clinics.

That was added a few years back because NCAA umpires are the only umpires that I know of REQUIRED by code to go for help on a check swing if asked (idiotic if using a 2 man system like in many levels of NCAA ball - JC, Div II, etc). ASA and NFHS do not require umpires to go for help on a check swing.

[Bretman]

And then there's this- ASA Rules Supplement #10 regarding "Checked Swings".

Did the batter swing at the pitched ball?...it is the plate umpires call. If in doubt, or blocked out, the umpire should call the pitch a ball. (ie: the umpire should rule a swing and a strike ONLY if he is 100% certain he saw one.)...the umpire should ONLY ask for help if there is some doubt in their mind as to whether or not the batter swung at the pitched ball (ie: ONLY if he has ruled the pitch a ball).

You have to read between the lines, because this doesn't flat out state that the umpire can't go for help on a checked swing ruled a strike. But if you can only call a swing/strike if you are 100% certain you saw one, accepting the request would be moot. On the other hand, if there is doubt in your mind and you call a ball, it means you are not certain and you can go to your partner- it is precisely the situation the asking for help process is supposed to address.

As noted, in high school and ASA ball, if the umpire is 100% certain he did NOT see a swing, he may deny the appeal on a ball call. He's not required to check with his partner whenever asked, unlike in NCAA softball.

[Sam]

So my father-in-law is much older than me (obviously), and therefore is as smart as DD and knows everything. In a debate, God would have met his match.

So I am having a little trouble with this call.

2 strikes on the batter, NFHS. Pitch is eye level, batter twitches shoulders a little, and PU rings her up for a swinging strike. Obviously a home-town call, but in my opinion, there is nothing to be done to continue the at bat.

FIL insists the coach should have appealed for the BU to see if he would reverse the call. Says he has seen appeals of this nature on various levels many times. He variously insists that this is the same as an appeal of check swing/"ball" and/or the rarer occasion when the PU on his own accord says "Partner, did she go?" or similar. FIL continues that the call was so bad that PU should know it was a marginal call, and should therefore be open to an appeal from base coach. Even when I tried to explain there is no appeal on a swinging strike (such as this example), he still insists the PU could and should go for help. The fact that the base coach did attempt to get PU to ask for help, and was told that he (PU) would not consider any discussion, appeal, or help on a swinging strike, is lost on FIL (coach is so lost that this effort is not surprising). I just could not seem to get it across that there was nothing (appropriate) that could be done.

Is there a specific rule (NFHS or ASA equivalent) that answers this specific situation, since experience and common sense don't seem to factor in for FIL? (The basic rule that a batter is out on the 3rd strike won't help)

Tell FIL to get a new crack dealer. HP only goes to BU if he didn't see the play well (or at all) and needs help and thinks BU has a better angle. Many time in 2 man mechanics, the BU is out by 2B and has no clue on a checked swing merely due to the angle he/she is seeing the pitch.

[Busted Shins]

That's Sam. Technically correct, and with just the right interpersonal approach too!

[Busted Shins]

Arrgh. The world is flat after all. In 10 years, I have never seen an umpire actually reverse a called strike on appeal/ask for help.

Last Sat, whether it was permitted or should even be attempted by a coach was discussed with FIL to a stalemate.

HB agreed that called strikes are not subject to appeal/ask for help, and that the rules clearly indicate a pitch is called a strike when PU is sure, and ball when PU is not, with swing for strike subject to appeal to the BU.

Yet, today, 3 days later (different team), PU calls a check swing for strike. Uses all the mechanics, fist pump, point, emphatic verbalization, etc. I am thinking that it wasn't that much of a swing, but it was a lot more than Sat. 3rd base coach goes ballistic. Being an important and obnoxious coach for a presitgiou$ $chool whose reputation precedes him , PU caves on his call immediately , and goes to BU. More amazingly, BU reverses for safe/no swing/ball.

Just to demonstrate the level of professionalism here, PU responds to the crowd's objections and growls (including my own), and states to the spectators that he is completely within his authority to have called the strike, then be so unsure of it that he is willing to go the BU. And this was in SoCal to boot. Maybe its because it's H$, but I have seen this PU at ASA games too.

The world is flat. I might as well go back to basketball, where everyone knows and expects the officiating to suck.

[umpinva]

Yet, today, 3 days later (different team), PU calls a check swing for strike. Uses all the mechanics, fist pump, point, emphatic verbalization, etc. I am thinking that it wasn't that much of a swing, but it was a lot more than Sat. 3rd base coach goes ballistic. Being an important and obnoxious coach for a presitgiou$ $chool whose reputation precedes him , PU caves on his call immediately , and goes to BU. More amazingly, BU reverses for safe/no swing/ball.

Just to demonstrate the level of professionalism here, PU responds to the crowd's objections and growls (including my own), and states to the spectators that he is completely within his authority to have called the strike, then be so unsure of it that he is willing to go the BU. And this was in SoCal to boot. Maybe its because it's H$, but I have seen this PU at ASA games too.

Both of those umpires are in need of further training.