Appeals

[FastpitchUSA]

Two outs. Runners on second and third. Batter hits a ball in the gap in right-center. Runner from third scores before batter-runner passes first base. Runner from second scores before batter-runner passes second base. Batter-runner, with great speed, misses both first and second base while rounding the bases for an apparent home-run. How many runs score and how many outs are there if:

A. The defense does nothing?

B. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing second base?

C. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing first base?

D. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing second base and then appeals the batter-runner for missing first base?


Just thinking about some what ifs.

[Fredegar]

According to ASA Rule 8-7-G:
The Runner Is Out: "When a runner fails to touch a base or bases in regular or reverse order and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base, or any other runner forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner, this is a force out."

Therefore,
A) Not properly appealed. All 3 runs count. Play on.
B) Appealing the batter-runner at 2nd base would not constitute a "force", so it's a timing play. In your example, both runs scored prior to the batter-runner reaching 2nd. Both runs score. Batter-runner is the 3rd out.
C) Appealing the batter-runner at 1st base would constitute a "force". The 3rd out is a force play, so no runs score.
D) Dumb to appeal in this order. But since it's a dead-ball appeal, order shouldn't matter. If at some point, the batter-runner is out at 1st, it's a "force", so refer to answer C.

[tcannizzo]

According to ASA Rule 8-7-G:
The Runner Is Out: "When a runner fails to touch a base or bases in regular or reverse order and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base, or any other runner forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner, this is a force out."

Therefore,
A) Not properly appealed. All 3 runs count. Play on.
B) Appealing the batter-runner at 2nd base would not constitute a "force", so it's a timing play. In your example, both runs scored prior to the batter-runner reaching 2nd. Both runs score. Batter-runner is the 3rd out.
C) Appealing the batter-runner at 1st base would constitute a "force". The 3rd out is a force play, so no runs score.
D) Dumb to appeal in this order. But since it's a dead-ball appeal, order shouldn't matter. If at some point, the batter-runner is out at 1st, it's a "force", so refer to answer C.

No disrespect, but how can you cite a specific rule, and then say that BR is forced at 1B, when there is no such thing.
Neither of the missed base appeals at 2B nor 1B would constitute a force play.

[tcannizzo]

Two outs. Runners on second and third. Batter hits a ball in the gap in right-center. Runner from third scores before batter-runner passes first base. Runner from second scores before batter-runner passes second base. Batter-runner, with great speed, misses both first and second base while rounding the bases for an apparent home-run. How many runs score and how many outs are there if:

A. The defense does nothing?
B. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing second base?
C. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing first base?
D. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing second base and then appeals the batter-runner for missing first base?

A. 3
B. 2
C. depends
a.) If Live Ball Appeal before R1 scored from 3B, then zero runs would score.
b.) If Live Ball Appeal after R1 scored from 3B and BEFORE R2 scored from 2B, then one run would score.
c.) If Dead Ball Appeal AFTER both R1 and R2 crossed the plate, then 2 runs would score.
D. Same as C

Consider the 2012 ASA Playing Rules for the basis:

Rule 1 - Definitions:
BATTER-RUNNER: A player who has completed a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or [not yet] reached first base.

Section 5. SCORING OF RUNS.
B. No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:

1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.
2. A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

RS 1 Appeals
L. Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives.
When a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched the base unless properly appealed.

[/quote]

[Fredegar]

No disrespect, but how can you cite a specific rule, and then say that BR is forced at 1B, when there is no such thing. Neither of the missed base appeals at 2B nor 1B would constitute a force play.

tcanizzo -- Did you read the ASA rule I quoted? It specifically says: The runner is out when a runner fails to touch a base...and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base...this is a force out.

How is that confusing? If the appeal is successful at first base, it's considered a force out. And all normal rules apply regarding the 3rd out being the result of a "force" play. What do you mean there's no such thing as a force at 1B? Clearly there's a disconnect somewhere.

[tcannizzo]

No disrespect, but how can you cite a specific rule, and then say that BR is forced at 1B, when there is no such thing. Neither of the missed base appeals at 2B nor 1B would constitute a force play.

tcanizzo -- Did you read the ASA rule I quoted? It specifically says: The runner is out when a runner fails to touch a base...and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base...this is a force out.

How is that confusing? If the appeal is successful at first base, it's considered a force out. And all normal rules apply regarding the 3rd out being the result of a "force" play. What do you mean there's no such thing as a force at 1B? Clearly there's a disconnect somewhere.

I understood perfectly what you wrote.

As it turns out the rule you are citing does not apply.

Please refer to Definitions of Runner and Batter-Runner; they are two different things.
Then refer to the definition of Force Play.

I would copy/paste these rules, but since you have the book, you can look it up and get back to us after you have thought about it for a few minutes.

[MTR]

Two outs. Runners on second and third. Batter hits a ball in the gap in right-center. Runner from third scores before batter-runner passes first base. Runner from second scores before batter-runner passes second base. Batter-runner, with great speed, misses both first and second base while rounding the bases for an apparent home-run. How many runs score and how many outs are there if:

A. The defense does nothing?

B. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing second base?

C. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing first base?

D. The defense appeals the batter-runner for missing second base and then appeals the batter-runner for missing first base?


Just thinking about some what ifs.

A. 3
B. 2
C. None
D. 2

As an aside, it is impossible to have a force out at 1B.

[tcannizzo]

Upon further review, I defer to MTR.

[Fredegar]

Please educate me.

Rule 8-7-G seems to be clear when talking about appeals for missing bases:
"If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base...this is a force out."

I didn't realize that plays at 1B are not considered "Force Outs". Since no tag of the batter-runner is required, I figured it's considered a "force". Fair enough. But 8-7-G states that you would treat a dead-ball appeal as a "force out" when it applies to the batter-runner missing first base.

Sorry to be dense, but what am I missing?

[Bretman]

Technically, by the strict definition of a "force out", a force out can only be recorded against a runner who was already on base at the time the batter did something to become a batter-runner.

(Keep in mind that the status of an offensive player can change from "batter" to "batter-runner" to "runner" any number of ways and there are generally different rules that apply depending on the player's status.)

Practically, many rule books will refer to the batter-runner being put out before safely reaching first base as a "force out", either in other rules referencing this play or in interpretative literature. Think of it as kind of a shorthand way of saying "a batter-runner who is put out before safely reaching first base...wink, wink...you know what we really mean". While technically not correct, calling this a force out will usually covey the same meaning and have the same repurcusions.

For ASA, the definition of a "force out" can be found under Rule 1 (Definitions). Note that it specifically refers to "runners"- offensive players who are already on base while a batter is at the plate.

One place in the rule book where they are consistent is the rule about a run scoring or not when the third out is made (5-5-B). It says no run scores when the third out is the result of a batter-runner being called out before safely reaching first base OR any other runner being forced out when the batter becomes a batter-runner. This does serve to reinforce that they really are two separate things.