Blues Unite......Please for goodness sake

[NoNothin]

I umpired for quite a few years and never really came across this until I started coaching my dd and I have brought this up on other message boards a couple of times. That being said the only reason I want to keep re-hashing it is because more recently umpires can't seem to grasp it. Situation is BR gets on base either by base hit or E and runs through 1st turning around to toward the field without rounding. As she comes toward first walking back the ball is thrown to F1 in the circle and the defense regains composure. While they are regaining composure and not paying attention the BR takes off for 2nd making it safely. I can't understand how so many umpires know that this is legal and how many still think that there is such a thing as a "hesitation" rule which would not apply here any way and call her out. I have read the LBR many times (since I never really saw much of it when I called games) and need some help with the letter of the law on this one. Is my thinking correct on this one or not? I am talking strictly ASA. We had a huge ordeal over this in an ASA tourney a few weeks ago. A norcal team argued hesitation for 30 minutes and after we threatened a protest the PU (looking like a deer in the headlights anyway) let it go and called her safe at 2nd. Help!!!

NoNo

[MTR]

I umpired for quite a few years and never really came across this until I started coaching my dd and I have brought this up on other message boards a couple of times. That being said the only reason I want to keep re-hashing it is because more recently umpires can't seem to grasp it. Situation is BR gets on base either by base hit or E and runs through 1st turning around to toward the field without rounding. As she comes toward first walking back the ball is thrown to F1 in the circle and the defense regains composure. While they are regaining composure and not paying attention the BR takes off for 2nd making it safely. I can't understand how so many umpires know that this is legal and how many still think that there is such a thing as a "hesitation" rule which would not apply here any way and call her out. I have read the LBR many times (since I never really saw much of it when I called games) and need some help with the letter of the law on this one. Is my thinking correct on this one or not? I am talking strictly ASA. We had a huge ordeal over this in an ASA tourney a few weeks ago. A norcal team argued hesitation for 30 minutes and after we threatened a protest the PU (looking like a deer in the headlights anyway) let it go and called her safe at 2nd. Help!!!

NoNo

To start, the action defined is NOT legal. So the umpire missed the call. It is a violation of 8.7.T.d. The only way this runner could advance to 2B is if she immediately stopped after turning left and then proceeded directly to 2B; or turned left and directly toward 2B.

If the BR which overruns 1B turns left and steps in any direction toward the infield other then 2B, she is commited to return to 1B immediately.

All the above is predicated on the pitcher having possession of the ball in the circle.

[NoNothin]

As she comes toward first walking back the ball is thrown to F1 in the circle and the defense regains composure.

As earlier stated, the pitcher does not have the ball when she is already turned around and walking back to first. Before she gets to first the ball gets to the circle and she takes off to 2nd because she is allowed to change direction once the ball is in control in the circle. This has nothing to do with which direction she turns after running through 1st. The key is that she changes direction once after the ball is in the pitchers control in the circle. Read a little further in 8.8.k as I understand it the ball is still live and the LBR says she can change direction one time before she gets back to a base.

NoNo

[umpinva]

Your wish is being granted. I banged a runner out in Rock Hill SC a couple of weeks ago in a tournament being played under ASA rules for doing exactly what you described. This weekend while at the PA Firecracker College Showcase I was working with an umpire from Ohio who called a runner out for doing it also. The Firecracker Showcase was being played using PONY rules.

[NoNothin]

Your wish is being granted. I banged a runner out in Rock Hill SC a couple of weeks ago in a tournament being played under ASA rules for doing exactly what you described. This weekend while at the PA Firecracker College Showcase I was working with an umpire from Ohio who called a runner out for doing it also. The Firecracker Showcase was being played using PONY rules.

Please give me the exact rule that backs up these two umpires uniting. Honestly out of the 50/50 rulings I've seen on this situation, the ones calling the BR out were unsure of themselves and didn't know exactly which rule it was and the other half were pretty confident (mostly SoCal tournaments and friendlies). I could care less either way....I just want to know for sure, especially before we get to nationals.

NoNo

[wadeintothem]

ASA and NFHS - She is out. She is committed to first when LBR is in effect. When that pitcher has the ball and she is returning to first, she is out. Its not "hesitation", that is not the rule.

NCAA is the only "major" rule set where this that play is legal.

ASA
8.7.T
LBR is in effect :The “Look Back” rule shall be in effect for all runners when the ball is live,
the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle. The pitcher is considered to be in the pitcher’s circle when both feet are on or within the lines.
3.
d. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, turns left and moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second base is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base.

e. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, and turns right, is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base.


There is no wiggle room there.

[JEL]

Friday night my partner (and mrs also) called a LBR violation at 3B. Had to explain to the coach that the pitcher had control in the circle.

Saturday, same teams, same girl, LBR violation at 2B. I called it, but had to also explain it to the coach. His reply was pitcher wasn't on the "rubber."

I wish the coaches could get together!

[NoNothin]

Rule 8 Section 7 T.3.a A batter runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop once, but then must immediately non-stop return to first base or attempt to advance non-stop to second base. I guess the key is that she cannot just run through and turn around to the left. She has to round 1st and return and while returning the ball gets to the circle she can stop and change direction once. Your right, no wiggle room there. Thanks for the help, I wish ASA would clarify this with all thier umps. I can't tell you how many we have crossed that still call it a hesitation rule. Thanks again,

NoNo

[umpinva]

Your wish is being granted. I banged a runner out in Rock Hill SC a couple of weeks ago in a tournament being played under ASA rules for doing exactly what you described. This weekend while at the PA Firecracker College Showcase I was working with an umpire from Ohio who called a runner out for doing it also. The Firecracker Showcase was being played using PONY rules.

Please give me the exact rule that backs up these two umpires uniting. Honestly out of the 50/50 rulings I've seen on this situation, the ones calling the BR out were unsure of themselves and didn't know exactly which rule it was and the other half were pretty confident (mostly SoCal tournaments and friendlies). I could care less either way....I just want to know for sure, especially before we get to nationals.

NoNo

You have had several responses that umpire's are banging the OP as an out. Rules have been spelled out for you. If you're going to the ASA Nationals (Virginia) or PONY Nationals in (Ohio), on the fields I work that will be an out all day.

[NoNothin]

and twice on Sunday....I know, I know. Thanks for the help guys,

NoNo