Jury Idiocy Comes to Montana

[Skarp]

BTW, I'm much more concerned with the doctoring of bats than with current standards. I would like to see bats produced that are incapable of being doctored without obvious tell-tale signs.

[tcannizzo]

Me too!
But some may argue.....

[Tumblebug]

You are the one who is out of line, TB. You are flat out lying about what I have posted. You don't even read my posts....hell, you're asking questions about my DD's bats that I answered on page 2 of this thread, trying to prove that I'm the hypocrite I already admitted to being. I didn't disparage anything or anybody....you just don't like that somebody described your stake in the game. So, you whine about being attacked. Accept that you have the dog in the fight...we all do.

You don't know what my stake is. You can guess and you have but you are nothing but wrong. My stake is to offer the most competitive product possible within the safety and performance guidelines of the softball and baseball organizing bodies. That is my stake and any other assumptions you make to support your personal opinions are fabrications.

I do give a "rat's a$$" about the integrity game and the safety of the people that play it. I care very much. For you to suggest that I would compromise that for a buck is offensive. That is personal. You can crusade all you want but leave my thoughts, feelings and intentions out of your assumptions because there is no way for you to know them without me telling you what they are.

A) Anybody that has a brain and can think logically knows your stake in this argument. Any change to the standards costs you money. We understand that...its not personal...its a fact. Quit whining about it.

Perhaps you don't qualify; do I need to type s l o w e r? Here it is again from one of my earlier posts:

"As for my “stake” in it, you apparently don’t understand supply and demand. It would actually be a huge windfall for me to have the standard change and have the current bats become unplayable. That means that every bat I ever sold would have to be replaced at the end-user’s expense. That would mean that they would have to buy them from someone and that someone may very well be me. A redesign to de-tune a bat design would be nearly free to me. Only old inventory would be a problem but that would only be a minor inconvenience. Having the opportunity to resell every bat I ever sold would not have a single negative effect on my business. But I don't think it would be good for the game or benefit the buying public."

B) Allow me to quote from one of your previous posts so that we can gauge exactly how much of a rat's a$$ you really care about our DDs' safety.

"I don't think there is a safety issue. That's where we disagree. Even if we didn't disagree in that, I don't have any responsibility for the measure of safety installed in the game. The organizing bodies dictate that by virtue of the rules. My job as a businessman is to build the most competitive product possible. "

Wow...you really care....that brings a tear to my eye.

That doesn't say I don't give a rat's a$$. It says I don't think there is a safety issue. There's a big difference. I care about the integrity of the game and the safety of the players but I don't think that one-in-a-million is a safety problem that can be solved by changing the performance requirements when the problem existed before and has not gotten worse. And you are still trying to make me out the bad guy because I don't agree with you.

[Sam]

Skarp,

I think you and others on this board have already acknowledged that the game is dangerous. The issue here is that the parents of the batters think the bats are fine and will continue to do so even after the inevitable happens and a pitcher is killed. ASA won't do anything until they get sued or pitchers stop pitching. The BM's would rather spend a little money lobbying ASA to keep the current standard than spend money developing a new dumber bat.

The NCAA found a problem with the composite bats used in baseball...an issue which likely is prevalent in softball:

http://allaboutfastpitch.com/Blog/will-softball-follow/

The bat manufacturers are go out of their way to cheat the standards in order to make the bats more dangerous:

http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/cop.html

TB is a salesman. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Sam]

Sorry TB,

I do understand S&D. I also understand that redesign and retooling aren't free and I understand competition. You would be redesigning an 88mph bat to perform like a 98mph bat. You have to in order to compete. If it was no big deal, maybe you can tell me why the bat manufacturers fought the switch from 100mph bats to the current 98mph and why they keep pushing the standards.


http://www.momentummedia.com/articles/cm/cm1209/bbasa.htm

Claiming that the safety of the players isn't your job DOES reflect that you don't give a rat's a$$ about their safety. That dog won't hunt.

[Sam]

An interesting excerpt from the Kettering studies:

"Since the F2219 test standard fires balls from cannons towards initially stationary bats, it is not possible for the F2219 test to account for, or detect, any improvements in performance of flexible handled bats due to the supposed "whip action" they provide during the swing. "

So the 98mph test doesn't assure that the ball won't leave the bat at less than 98mph. It says that the ball won't leave the bat at a speed of greater than 98mph given a 60mph pitch contacting a bat swung at 70mph with no whip.

Stationary golf balls are struck at 120mph swing speed and leave the club face at 165mph, much of that difference can be attributed to the whip of the golf club shaft.

ASA has realized, also, that composite bats get hotter with use. So....a bat which meets the standard brand new, falls out of compliance the more it is used.

[Tumblebug]

Sorry TB,

I do understand S&D. I also understand that redesign and retooling aren't free and I understand competition. You would be redesigning an 88mph bat to perform like a 98mph bat. You have to in order to compete. If it was no big deal, maybe you can tell me why the bat manufacturers fought the switch from 100mph bats to the current 98mph and why they keep pushing the standards.


http://www.momentummedia.com/articles/cm/cm1209/bbasa.htm

Claiming that the safety of the players isn't your job DOES reflect that you don't give a rat's a$$ about their safety. That dog won't hunt.

All athletics are risky. When I played as a kid, I liked the risk involved. I played because it is risky. My boys like the risk involved too. I personally had my face crushed by a thrown ball. I broke both my cheeks, my nose, my jaw and 5 teeth. 16 weeks later I was fielding ground balls and turning double plays again. I never blamed anybody for my misfortune. Injury is part of the game. If you are afraid of the risk, buy some protective gear or don't play but in either case STFU! You have plenty of choices. If you don't think it's safe then protect your kid. Wrap your DD in bubble-wrap or try Lacrosse. Lacrosse is the same season and the fastest growing sport in America. But your daughter can't play without lots of protective gear. Hmmm, maybe that's an option. How many games require protective gear and why shouldn't diamond sports require the same? I think your crusade is misplaced. If you are going to rage against the machine, why not pick a solution that works regardless of the materials of the bat or ball and allows the game to remain exciting.

You are truly ignorant. I can't believe you have the audacity to argue with me about what it takes to do my job or how much it costs. The only necessary difference in design to change the performance of a bat is a material change and the tooling is unaffected. I know that because it's what I do. I change the material and double the price because everybody has to buy them now that the old ones are outlawed. Problem solved. You pay, I win and the game eventually goes away because you and your crusade turned it to an ultra "safe" POS that nobody wants to play. You win smart guy but you've got no one to play with except the rest of the window lickers.

And finally, there it is again, the evil bat manufacturer argument! WTF! I simply don't agree that there is a problem. That does not warrant what you are saying about me personally.

But if you want to make it personal, I think that it was you who didn't give a rat's a$$ about your DD's safety. So that you could bask vicariously in the glory of her accomplishments, you let her pitch without protective gear. You put her in harm’s way for personal grandeur and now you are trying to deflect the guilt for her injuries into a crusade against the equipment. Apparently your hungry ego left you unfit to make the appropriate decisions to insure the personal safety of your own child. No matter whom you blame or whom you accuse, you were the one who allowed her to toe the rubber without protection knowing full well that injuries were possible. She was injured; you were negligent and it is your fault. The bat, the ball, the competitors, the field conditions, the coaches, the weather and nothing else that you can think of, in or around the game, were negligent about your daughter's safety, just you. You knew the risk; you let her play; it's your fault; you are to blame. Deal with that dad. I hope you are proud of yourself.

[Sam]

Wow, TB,

Name-calling.....accusing me of being a bad parent....is that your typical marketing strategy?

All athletics are risky...not many of them are potentially lethal.

I've already taken responsibility for what has happened in the past to my DD. I live with it every day. That is the exact reason why I hang around this board....to at least attempt to get people thinking about what could and in some cases likely will happen to their daughters if they make the same mistakes I did. I'm not proud of the choices I made.

You may know more about your business than I do...but why do the bat manufacturers fight these proposed changes every time they come up....especially if it causes the financial windfall you claim. That is very telling. Businesses don't voluntarily do things that are not in their best financial interest. You cry about your perception that I am painting you as an evil bat manufacturer....when I don't think anything of the kind. I merely repeated what you stated earlier. You can edit your post and tell everybody what you really think.

My kids are all done playing, but I imagine I'll be coaching my grandsons when they reach LL playing age...if I live that long. They will not be pitchers.

I hope you and your business do well.....and I hope it isn't a Rocketech bat that is used when the first young lady is killed by a line drive.

[Skarp]

This has devolved into a good old-fashioned donnybrook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsPv07PTor8

[Tumblebug]

Wow, TB,

Name-calling.....accusing me of being a bad parent....is that your typical marketing strategy?

You started making it personal and still won't let up. I just flipped the card. If I am an evil bat manufacturer that doesn't give a rat's a$$ for making a competitive product then you are a negligent child abuser for letting your child play the game she loves. My life is not all about designing and selling bats. My marketing strategy should not include defending my personal integrity concerning the human condition . . . You shouldn't have to either.

All athletics are risky...not many of them are potentially lethal.

deaths happen in all sports.

I've already taken responsibility for what has happened in the past to my DD. I live with it every day. That is the exact reason why I hang around this board....to at least attempt to get people thinking about what could and in some cases likely will happen to their daughters if they make the same mistakes I did. I'm not proud of the choices I made.

But you are looking to throw the baby out with the bath water. Personal protection equipment will change the outcome of the dangerous incidents in the way you are hoping for. With so few accidents happening it is considerably more effective to protect the child than change the game.

You may know more about your business than I do...but why do the bat manufacturers fight these proposed changes every time they come up....especially if it causes the financial windfall you claim. That is very telling. Businesses don't voluntarily do things that are not in their best financial interest. You cry about your perception that I am painting you as an evil bat manufacturer....when I don't think anything of the kind. I merely repeated what you stated earlier. You can edit your post and tell everybody what you really think.

Who do you think takes the heat when the rules change? Do you think the organizing bodies have to deal with the angry consumer when they have to replace a perfectly good product? Every time there is a change in the rules my sales spike but it affects the sales negatively after the flurry dies down. I can look forward to a temporary sales increase but I don't want to deal with angry customers if it doesn't change anything. The safety of the game has not been changed one iota with the changes made. When they made helmets and then masks mandatory the numbers dropped dramatically.

I don't think the game should be changed because I don't believe it is unsafe. but as safe as it is, if we can save one child, we should. we should do that one child at a time and take personal responsibility for it rather than change the game.

My kids are all done playing, but I imagine I'll be coaching my grandsons when they reach LL playing age...if I live that long. They will not be pitchers.

My kids will wear masks

I hope you and your business do well.....and I hope it isn't a Rocketech bat that is used when the first young lady is killed by a line drive.

I doubt that it would be a first. I would suspect that we are decades too late for that. Any death would be a tragedy but the bat that hits the ball is just a detail. The real tragedy would be if it could have been avoided by using the appropriate personal protection gear.