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Being too honest with pitchers parents?!?

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by curveballerguy124 » Thu May 11, 2017 2:42 pm

The thing is I try to be a PC kind of person especially when dealing with parents and their children however I believe people should be honest when being paid for a service, in this case a pitching lesson....So I would appreciate a little feed back on this one maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm too callus, nonetheless a little feedback would be appreciated.

So here we go, for starters I'll give you all a little of my philosophy when it comes to pitches and pitchers: There are 3 pitches I recognize, a riseball, a dropball, and a changeup. All pitches fall into one of those categories the point is pitches are either dropping, rising or changing speed this helps me to simplify's things. Now there are Pitchers and there are Throwers. A "Pitcher" has command and location of her pitches, she has the "correct spin" on her pitches and she can throw a changeup in any count. Then there is a "Thrower" now she in most cases can throw hard (but not always) and is effectively wild, but has little control or command of her pitches nor does she have correct spin. And almost always has had at least 4 different pitching coaches....

OK now, lets get to my lesson, a dad contacts me saying he would like to get with me and bring his daughter to me for a lesson and she is 16yo she is a solid pitcher but needs a little fine tuning she has had several instructors but none have shown her anything new.....Soo I meet up with them we do a little warm up and I ask her to show me what she has and how she warms up(father is chiming in the whole time). She shows me her drop ball (wrong spin) shows me riseball (same as dropball) shows me fastball (dropball spin) shows me changeup (slows down everything) shows me screwball (same as drop and rise). At this point I told him she needs a little more then just fine tuning. The only pitch she threw correctly was her fastball which was technically a peel drop. I told him granted she throws hard but if she wants to be considered a pitcher and not a thrower she needs to learn how to throw pitches correctly and have command of them. Also whoever it was that told her that her riseball and dropball had the correct spin, is not somebody they should go back to regardless if they choose to stay with me or not. I went on and demonstrated a riseball, dropball, curveball, and offspeed for them to see the correct spin. Needless to say he told me that it was not possible for a girl to spin the ball the way I do because their hands are not as large or as strong , he then went on to tell me he would not be returning and that I had no right to say that his daughter was a thrower and not a pitcher because she is the starting pitcher in high school and the number #1 pitcher on their travel squad and is currently being recruited by several schools.... I tried to refuse payment but he insisted and told me that I was nobody to pass judgment on his kid!!!
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by PDad » Thu May 11, 2017 7:13 pm

curveballerguy124 wrote:The thing is I try to be a PC kind of person especially when dealing with parents and their children however I believe people should be honest when being paid for a service, in this case a pitching lesson....So I would appreciate a little feed back on this one maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm too callus, nonetheless a little feedback would be appreciated.

I appreciate your desire to be honest. Hard to give feedback without being there. You mention the possibility of being too callous. If so, the issue may not be with the content of what you said, but rather with how you said it (e.g. tone, tact). Did the father's "chiming in" bother you? Parents that think they know a lot and/or have an unrealistically high opinion of their DD are a challenge and can be annoying. You have a choice of either developing an effective way of dealing with them so you can help their DD or risk losing them.

I have a couple questions on the rest of your post...

So here we go, for starters I'll give you all a little of my philosophy when it comes to pitches and pitchers: There are 3 pitches I recognize, a riseball, a dropball, and a changeup.

Why did you omit a curveball? You demonstrated it to them - "I went on and demonstrated a riseball, dropball, curveball, and offspeed."

All pitches fall into one of those categories the point is pitches are either dropping, rising or changing speed ...

Do riseballs really rise - or is it they don't drop as much as other pitches?
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by curveballerguy124 » Thu May 11, 2017 9:54 pm

Appreciate the feedback and yes his chiming in was annoying me I'm not gonna lie but that wasn't a problem. However I felt I gave a honest and sincere assessment of his daughter. I never taught my daughter how to pitch the man who taught me how to pitch is who instructed her I just sat there and caught the ball. He was a very ornery old man borderline mean. I never had an issue with that Because I knew he was teaching her correctly. I guess what I'm concerned with is do parents want to hear the sugarcoated version of how their kid is performing or the honest truth???

I omitted the curve ball because the curveball one of my favorite pitches is more of an off speed/changeup so for me it falls into the changeup category, Even though it could fall into the drop ball category and the rise ball category it is still an offspeed pitch.

And does a riseball really rise....well that can be debated but for those of us who throw it successfully it does rise ever so slightly when thrown correctly especially when it is thrown as a low rise. There are some guys I know that throw that ball with a spin so hard that it looks like a Wiffleball thanks again for the feedback
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by PDad » Sat May 13, 2017 12:25 pm

curveballerguy124 wrote:do parents want to hear the sugarcoated version of how their kid is performing or the honest truth?

There's no issue on things they're doing well, only on the things they're doing wrong. People try different instructors to get better and typically already have quite a bit invested, so the smart move is to initially focus on the improvements you can make/teach (e.g. better spin/movement, increased speed) without disparaging what they're doing wrong.

curveballerguy124 wrote:OK now, lets get to my lesson, a dad contacts me saying he would like to get with me and bring his daughter to me for a lesson and she is 16yo she is a solid pitcher but needs a little fine tuning she has had several instructors but none have shown her anything new.....Soo I meet up with them we do a little warm up and I ask her to show me what she has and how she warms up(father is chiming in the whole time). She shows me her drop ball (wrong spin) shows me riseball (same as dropball) shows me fastball (dropball spin) shows me changeup (slows down everything) shows me screwball (same as drop and rise). At this point I told him she needs a little more then just fine tuning. The only pitch she threw correctly was her fastball which was technically a peel drop. I told him granted she throws hard but if she wants to be considered a pitcher and not a thrower she needs to learn how to throw pitches correctly and have command of them. Also whoever it was that told her that her riseball and dropball had the correct spin, is not somebody they should go back to regardless if they choose to stay with me or not. I went on and demonstrated a riseball, dropball, curveball, and offspeed for them to see the correct spin. Needless to say he told me that it was not possible for a girl to spin the ball the way I do because their hands are not as large or as strong , he then went on to tell me he would not be returning and that I had no right to say that his daughter was a thrower and not a pitcher because she is the starting pitcher in high school and the number #1 pitcher on their travel squad and is currently being recruited by several schools.... I tried to refuse payment but he insisted and told me that I was nobody to pass judgment on his kid!!!

An alternative approach would be to forego the disparaging verbal assessment and your demonstration in favor of trying to teach her 1 thing whose positive effect would be apparent. Part of evaluating a new student should be determining their ability to adapt/learn. If they aren't teachable, it's a waste of time and money to proceed. If she executes - even just a few times - what you're teaching her and it has a noticeable positive effect (e.g. better movement), it would prove to them you can help her and establish credibility in their eyes. At that point, they should be very receptive to other improvements that can be made.
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by RLH110 » Sun May 14, 2017 7:36 am

I think your approach is fine. My daughter pitches, and I've caught her many times next to someone else where the dad constantly chimes in. For me, that's the time to shut up and let the coach earn his/her money. It sounds like the dad has a serious case of "daddy goggles", where he can't honestly assess his kid, everything is good, or needs "slight tune-up".

Parents and student have to be honest and ready to receive feedback. If not, it'll be hard for them to learn and challenge themselves.
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by eddiez577 » Mon May 15, 2017 4:24 pm

You sir Curveballerguy sound like an amazing pitching coach, and I would love to hear your honesty concerning my daughter. She's a lefty '02 with good command on fastball, peel drop, change, screw, curve and change-curve (I think you know what I mean). Only thing is she's in the mid to high 40's and not in the smoking high 50's range, so because of that, she gets a lot of shade by opposing teams and their batters get jeered because they popped up or hit a silly ground ball to the corners.
Parents might be very sensitive sometimes, and I get it, since they're seeing their daughter through rose-colored glasses, but you as a coach have a duty to keep it direct and honest.
Keep up the good work.
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by curveballerguy124 » Tue May 16, 2017 1:35 pm

Eddie ....Don't worry too much about speed its not the end all be all to pitching and if your kids mechanics are good speed will come as she gets bigger and stronger she might not get blazing fast but speed will come. Not every kid was blessed with the throw hard gene but what she lacks in speed she needs to make up for with location and spin. Kids that throw hard can make more mistakes and be ok kids that don't have to be able to locate pitches well and disrupt batters timing. Bring her out to me if you like, the first lesson is on me.

All I ask is you don't get your little duck feelings hurt if you don't like what I say or send me an email about how I should not have posted our interaction on a fastpitch website,.....
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by eddiez577 » Tue May 16, 2017 3:04 pm

LOL thanks for the invite! We'll keep in touch.
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by bigclemdawg » Thu May 18, 2017 12:23 pm

can I bring my DD also she is a 07 her old pitching coach found a better paying job and can not make it anymore. So we maybe looking into getting a new one. you don't have to worry about me butting in im too lazy to put in effort I just sit on bucket and catch... and if im real lazy I will send the boy to catch for his sister lol...
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by Success Softball » Thu May 18, 2017 2:28 pm

My daughter (2000) went to Curveballerguy for about a year for weekly lessons and ultimately played on his travel ball team and enjoyed every minute. It was a long drive, almost two hours each way every week and worth every minute.

He was always honest, was never harsh, mean or rude. He was encouraging and positive but didn't cut slack if she didn't do her spins or other drills between lessons and he knows enough to know when she did or didn't. He told her when she was good and told her when she wasn't. When she wasn't good he told her why and what to do to correct or improve. We were fortunate, she did improve and ultimately got a D2 scholarship offer that in large part came from his tutoring..

I sat on the bucket, kept my mouth shut unless I didn't understand something and let him do his job. I only asked questions so I could work with her between lessons and never once tried to take over or coach her and we got along great. I learned a lot about pitching, pitches and even coaching and I've been a coach a long time. I think a lot has to do with what mindset you go in with. We went in looking to get her some good instruction and help her improve and we got what we paid for and more.

If you want your daughter to learn to throw a true rise ball and not a fastball that has an upward trajectory and to throw a curve that really has good spin and a good break, then this is the place to go. Be ready for honesty though.
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