Should the pitcher make this play?

[Judd]

I am helping on a rec team that DD is playing on to get more mound time (then dodo breaks her foot ) I will be the first to admit that most of you have probably forgotten more about ball than I know (compliment to you). But I pass on what I know and seek answers to what I dont know.

Here the deal

12U rec team, very inexperienced players, some never played before.
1 out
runner on 1st and 3rd
Catcher throws ball back to pitcher after pitch. runner is slow to come off back and hesitates to 2nd and pitcher makes throw to 2nd to get her out. 2nd misses, runner advances to 3rd and runner from 3rd goes home.

I tell pitcher, to never make that throw. We have girls that are new, arent great catchers and that is a very dangerous throw. Then on my way home I got to thinking, would that ever be a good throw from the pitcher to 2nd, with runner on 3rd?

I conclude with 2 outs and excellent fielders, if the runner was slow to 2nd, make the throw

I say less than 2 outs, dont make the throw. Runner on 3rd will go home regardless and what is the chance 2nd can get the ball back home in time?

Then I start thinking on a better team, the runners wouldnt be slow and by the time the pitcher got the ball, the runner would already be at 2nd.


So do I just coach and train for the future when they may be playing on a better team and that situation wouldnt come up?

[wadeintothem]

You dont make this throw at any level.. that runner was probably close to being out for Look Back Rule, if she wasnt (technically) already. All the pitcher has to do is look them back (hence the name of the rule).. if the runner takes of for 2nd, easy out.. if the runner does nothing, DB, out.

[fastpitchmom17]

The general rule is to NEVER throw behind the lead runner.

[Judd]

Thats what I thought.


Thanks

[Sam]

You're really doing these kids a disservice if you don't have them go after the stealing baserunner....depending on the game situation. If you are up 5 runs, why not try and get the out? If you are down 5 runs, why not try and get the out? If you are tied late in the game...maybe not. It is, however, rec ball...and the goal should be to teach the game....and who cares who wins or loses.

You need to, first and foremost, teach your pitcher the LBR....because, as Wade said...you may be able to get an out without a throw if the runner violates the rule and your pitcher acts correctly.

[Judd]

I did forget about the lookback rule but I dont think the girl would have been in violation unless she turned around. She started running when the catcher had the ball and just wasnt very fast. But I understand had the pitcher remained in the circle and looked her back, then she would be out. My understanding is if the pitcher pumps her arm, the runner can turn around w/o violating the rule?

As far as trying to take out base runners, I did try it the whole scrimmage on 3rd base. I made my newbie catcher throw down every time the girl got a a good lead. She usually made a bad throw and the runner went home, but I figured thats what we are they to do, practice and learn. After scrimmage I worked with her on her throws.

Exactly, I am trying to teach the game. But do I teach what would be done on a more experienced team or for situations that occur in rec ball? To be honest, this never would have come up in TB as the runner would have been gone on the pitchers release, and would have been on the bag or way too close to make that play.

Thanks for all the input

[fastpitchmom17]

Depends on the outs too I guess. Our (12u Rec) general defensive rule is NEVER throw behind the LR. 2 outs, play's @ 1.....0 or 1 out look her back & go 1-4. Who ever said it's just Rec let them try to get the out......I totally disagree, lets not teach them to throw the ball around and hope they finally get somebody, lets teach them to think about where the play is and know how many outs there are at all times or they will always be playing JUST Rec!

[Sam]

Depends on the outs too I guess. Our (12u Rec) general defensive rule is NEVER throw behind the LR. 2 outs, play's @ 1.....0 or 1 out look her back & go 1-4. Who ever said it's just Rec let them try to get the out......I totally disagree, lets not teach them to throw the ball around and hope they finally get somebody, lets teach them to think about where the play is and know how many outs there are at all times or they will always be playing JUST Rec!

I'm the one who said "its just rec" and I think they need to be afforded the opportunity to make plays...not just let the runner take the base. If you aren't allowing them to throw the ball, you are retarding their growth as players...which is OK for 90% of them, but unfair to the 10% that might want to get better. The scenarios you reference aren't like to happen on a first and third situation....you are obviously playing the IF in (which may are may not be warranted)...ground balls to F6 and F4 will be scores because R1 at 3B will be going on ground ball contact....the only look back scenario you would have is a ground ball to F5...so in rec ball you may be better off to play the IF back in many of those situations and try to get outs wherever you can. Just a thought.

[fastpitchmom17]

Ok, I still just say keep it simple....very inexperienced team w/a couple of total green horns, NEVER throw behind the leadrunner! Especially when all u need to do it stare her down and wait on blue to call DB. I guess it's a judgment call. I personally would rather let the girl have the base than watch the girls throw the ball all over the place, I would give up a base any day to hold a runner.

[wadeintothem]

I just dont think I see this play much, except for what I would term an error on someones part..
R1@3B R2@1b
If that pitcher has that ball and makes no play.. and even in a delayed steal situation (which I do see of course), if R1 comes off 3B during the delayed steal with the pitcher making no play, R1 is out. Once LBR is in effect (ie a runner is stopped at a bag and pitcher has ball in circle).. they are locked there.

So R1 gets no real benefit from the delay unless a play is made on them.. so DONT make a play.. let R1 goof up.

How I handle LBR is I say to myself "I'm gonna call her out".. if shes not doing something when I'm done saying that to myself, my arm is up... its too late for her. She must immediately decide.. NO cat and mouse at all.

So because of LBR, specifically designed to eliminate cat and mouse.. there are not many comprehensive strats for cat and mouse. So runners are trained to return to the bag (even if slowly doing their fake head first slide thing ) when the ball is back to the pitcher. If you got a runner that is hanging off the bag when the ball is in there circle, you need to ask for time and talk to the umpire... not think of plays to address it or pick em off.

Of course I do see pick offs by F2.. thats the standard in Softball.. not much pickoffs by the pitcher, it just doesnt pay and they have the most powerful out there is on their side, automatic.