Squishing The Bug

[dittoz]

Scott;

As always - a terrific-ly (?) well stated explanation. My HS son is a habitual bug-squisher unless I point it out to him. Then he corrects and becomes more Pujols-like. The original sit-back and swing process started with Epstein, but then turned slightly and became his own deal. He has good power and hits the ball (baseball) well, but we always know he has more power and control when he is rolling onto the toe rather than grinding it.

What we've found is that when squishing (I tell him to quit spinning), the force that could go into the bat velocity is instead wasted on his back knee and the friction on the ground. We have some excellent photos from over the years of players "tilting" back, but one can see 1/4" or so of air under the back foot as momentum carries them against their front foot.

With regard to the know, I also have continually noted the exceptionally light grip on the bat with both the top hand as well as on the knob. Loose fingers as I coach the girls.. I supect that having very little contact with the bat makes it quicker, but gripping it at the knob also lengthens the bat and maybe provides a tad more speed in the barrel at contact.

Thoughts?

-curt

[jofus]

Ssarge,

Eh, I was gonna type up a big long story, but I figure no one cares. Basically, I play slow pitch and I hold my bat with the knob about on my ring finger of my bottom hand or so, and, probably for stupid reasons, I had my DD hold her bat that way when she was 11ish (I thought it would help her roll her hands through better, and maybe it did, for all I know). She doesn't hold it that way now, but I may actually have her try it again The real benefit is probably simple physics, it makes the bat a little longer, kinda opposite choking up...if you can make your bat a little longer without sacrificing speed, then the sweet spot would have a little more momentum, right?

As for Pujols, I think it's probably indicative of him having a very light grip on the bat as he launches his swing, and he is swinging so hard that he "catches" the knob in his bottom hand as his grip tightens, which may even add a little "whip" action to the bat as it enters the contact zone? I'm sure it's on purpose, I'm not implying that he is almost letting it slip out of his hands by accident and catching it that way by luck....although, that technique would explain the occasional "bat flying into the crowd" episodes that you see.

Or, more likely, I'm talking out of my behind and have no clue what it signifies, if anything I have to think that he has a reason though, and probably isn't the only one that has the bat that way when he strikes the ball.

I know you probably have a much better way of thinking about it, and am curious about what you see? Heck, I've got my DD thinking so much now when she swings, I'll take any advice or help that I can get.

[Gone in 2.6]

I was thinking about this while I was supposed to be working, and to me, squishing the bug means you are rotating "around" your back leg, instead of rotating "around" your front leg like you should be?

Ssarge, I agree with you on the linear to rotational transition. A purely rotational swing is more of a "sit and spin" swing, imho, and probably won't have as much power either. I've seen people try to say "see, even rotational "gurus" have a linear movement in their teaching". Well, yeah, kinda, but like you said, that's actually the pre-swing, the actual swing hasn't even been triggered yet at that point. The actualy swing starts when the linear movement becomes rotational. That doesn't mean everyone who starts with a stride is a hybrid swinger, that is what good rotational hitters do.
As for Pujol's body tilt in the smaller pic, I noticed that too, and posted it anyway, since that is another argument that I see occasionally, about the tilt or lack of depending on the location of the pitch

Like I mentioned, I'm still trying to learn this stuff myself, I'm glad that Ssarge posted, he's one of the best I've seen on various message boards at discussing/debating this stuff in a rational manner.

Exactly Jofus,

Hitters like Pujols that stride before rotating ARE "purely rotational". Counting the stride, which can't be anything BUT linear, as part of your swing description to claim that the swing is a "combination (or hybrid) of linear and rotational" is, as Ssarge mentioned, disingenuous (actually I would have said an intellectually dishonest pile of camel dung but Ssarge is a far more tactful and likeable individual. )
The words linear and rotational, in their established and historical use in hitting venacular, describe handpath and post toe touch movements.

It's either a marketing ploy like Ssarge alluded to or it was an established fastpitch coach trying to save a little face as opposed to admitting "every hitting video I made in the past was completely wrong".

[ssarge]

Great discussion.

2.6: You do have a "word with ways," and cut right to the chase. . . . .Correct conclusion, IMO. If it was Don Slaught derived - and I suspect it was, such the verbiage on the RVP baseball instructional tapes is virtually identical - then there you go. He played 12 years in MLB, then studied hitting in great detail to launch RVP. He certainly SHOULD know what the terms historically have meant.


Jofus: When playing SP, I also let the hand down over the knob on occasion, and it seems to me this is fairly common in SP.


The grip pressure comment is interesting, and part of what I was getting at. One of the few areas where I have ever disagreed with Englishbey, and we joke about it almost every time we speak. Or rather, he derides me fopr my opinion, and I reciprocate with some comment about shaved legs and / or spandex.

I will mount a defense of my opinion by pointing out that instruction in golf fairly universally stresses a firm - but not tight - grip. And I find in golf that when I overgrip, I come "over the top" - shoulders ahead of hips. Not pretty.

My OWN observation for hitters - experiential, NOT rooted in knowledge of kineseology - is that when I grip the bat tightly, it causes my arms to be more active in the swing. In other words, I try to "muscle up." I observe this is very common in female hitters as well. I don't want to do that, and so I try to grip the bat loosely. It is a struggle not to tighten or "re-grip" the bat at swing launch, especially with the dominant hand. And I observe that with lots of hitters. In my case, I am a RH throw, LH bat, so at least when I regroup with my dominant hand, it is the bottom hand.

I have personally found that a really tight grip with the top hand is: 1) prevalent among less than elite hitters; and 2) not good.

Best,

Scott

[dittoz]

Jofus, do I just type faster or are you reading over my shoulder as I type?

It seems like there are a number of guys, not sure about gals, that hold the knob in mid-finger. I'd be interested to hear what led to that because when i tried it, it sure isn't comfortable when point of contact forces the knob edge into the fingers. A smooth and flat grip definitely feels better!

With grip strength, yes - I've seen a number of discussions attributing bats flying into the crowd with the light grips. Kevin Youkilis @ Boston has a grip that I swear i barely holding anything- looks similar to Pujols' that is on the first page of this post. Scott makes the very good point that muscling up is a "bad thing" and pretty much universally believed to slow a swing down. Like racing, loose is fast.

Back to bug squishing though, I think the primary problem is that it directs energy and momentum away from the bat.

-curt

[3Bsnag]

"It seems like there are a number of guys, not sure about gals, that hold the knob in mid-finger. I'd be interested to hear what led to that because when i tried it, it sure isn't comfortable when point of contact forces the knob edge into the fingers. A smooth and flat grip definitely feels better!"

The SP girls do it too. My ring finger is resting on the knob and my pinky is on the bottom. Bat rests in the creases of my fingers, not in the palm. For me, that hand position forces me to relax my hands and not grip the bat so tightly and helps roll my wrists.

[ssarge]

and helps roll my wrists.

THAT sounds a little scary. Are you talking about after contact? Sure do like to see palm up / palm down (hands parallel to pitch plane) at contact. And I believe that to be the norm for most of the elites. Rolling before contact will raise the end of the bat, and results in far more ground balls (and less line drives). At least in my experience. Do you see it differently?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

[3Bsnag]

lol- yes, I roll after contact, but I am in no way an elite athlete. More like: beer drinking, DD plays way better than I do, too much weight on my front foot batter, do as I say-not as I do, crap talking (to my own team), Friday night softballer.

Although, I have debated joining a womens FP league again. My batting really is a lot better since DD has been in lessons. Is 5 or 6 seconds H to 1st acceptable for old people? Ha!

[Rotatorcuff]

This is the best hitting thread I seen in awhile. Everyone seems to be in fair agreement and I've not heard one word about the "engine"

Relaxing the grip works well. A tip I picked up (for slowpitch) is to squeeze the bat as tight as possible just before the pitcher releases the ball. Your hands will automatically relax when you let up. I doubt this would work well for FP b/c the reation time is too short. I don't play FP, and I wouldn'd dare try to teach this to the girls I'm coaching. I also drop the pinky off the knob. Seems to give a little more whip, probably b/c the bat becomes about 1/2 inch longer. Centrifigal Force thing.

I'm coaching 8U's at the moment, so this thread is a little deep to try to communicate to them. I use three cues: Hips, Hands, Wrists.
Start with the hips
Hands to the ball (out in front of the lead leg)
Wrists - roll the wrist at the end. Palm up/Palm down and just flip them over.

It's simple for them to grasp and gives them a decent foundation for the next level of teaching.

Rotatorcuff

BTW: for the pinky droppers - try grip-n-rips or knob cuffs or build up hockey tape to taper the handle near the knob. It is WAYYYYY more comfortable. I like grip-n-rips.

[bradrhod]

A loose grip, palm up, palm down seems to be the best grip. I have also 'discussed' this with Englishbey in the past. For me it is for a different reason. I actually think the wrists can fire as a part of the swing. I know that Candrea teaches this, and many of the succesful hitting instructors in our are teach this as well.

We have had two girls on our teams in the past that rolled thier wrists early. Both of them generated pop ups. I think this was because the bat tip would tip up, then down. Yes, they were rolling that early.

I think that squishing the bug is an 'over teach'. You are trying to get the kid up and rotating. One of the key elements to free up the hips, is the action of the back leg. It needs to push the weight up to the front leg, then the knee bends and drops down to a position that is a straight line with the back shoulder. As people are teaching this they think they see the back foot spin.

We have found when working with younger hitters 8/9's, getting them to drop the back knee through can greatly improve thier ability to rotate thier hips.

We should start a thread on the second engine here... I always wanted to understand more what joe was ranting about, but I found it really hard to piece through the anti englishbey rhetoric.